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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 21, 2020 16:03:40 GMT -5
People want Ivystar for quite a few reasons. She's already had a POV, so we've seen her from her kithood and up. She's had plenty of screentime and development as a character in general. She's turned out to be a great mate, mother, and mentor. She's shown leadership skills in the DF, her own Clan, and last minute situations. She's a good fighter, good hunter, and good with strategies. She's shown to have good morality, but doesn't mind making tough choices. She's been relatively relevant in the story, even though she's no longer a protag. She's also at a really good age range for choice, not to old or too young. She's also not too closely related to Firestar as well, she's his Great-great niece. Those are all really good points. Ivypool probably wouldn't be a bad leader at all, I guess I'm still judging her from the time she almost had, would have, killed an already dead medicine cat, who did nothing to her. And then she actually did kill the soul of Antpelt, and didn't he help her out a few chapters before that? I know she was doing it to protect herself, so she wouldn't be exposed, so she could eventually help her clan, but it still doesn't really sit right with me. I'll probably get some hate for this, but that's just my opinion, I really like Ivypool, but still, she literally killed a cat out of existence. But, maybe that just shows that she does have good leadership qualities, because she's willing to do whatever it takes to help out her clan. Now I'm conflicted. The thing is, she was put in a situation where they were testing her skills. She internally did not want to do it, but to keep her undercover job she didn't have a choice. Ivypool has shown deep regret for what she's done in the past, to the point of PTSD. She's talked about how she didn't even want to use skills from her DF training, because it's too brutal and the thought of it unsettled her. When put into a situation where she doesn't have a choice, it's hard to for me to personally judge her for that. The DF cats had not qualms with killing trainees, over the smallest things like falling asleep during training, or randomly for fun and trying to intentionally drown them. Antpelt took up the challenge to fight Ivypool, one of them weren't going to walk away from it regardless. And the second time around, at that point he's accepted and fully embraced being in the ranks of the other DF cats, there was no turning back for him from the start. But as I said, and you have, she still makes hard choices when she has too. Despite not wanting to fight and kill Antpelt she did, to gain more of the DF cat's approval and trust, and was able to move up in their ranks while under cover. Despite not wanting to hurt Flametail, she was willing to do it to prove her loyalty to one of the DF leaders who were suspicious of her. Despite not wanting to use her DF skills again, she willingly taught others some of it, and even utilized them in the battle against the badgers to protect her clan. She is willing to make hard decisions for the greater good, but it doesn't take away from her morals or I guess the cat version of her humility. It shows she's not a perfect cat, and even complexed, and gives more layers to her character.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:12:34 GMT -5
Those are all really good points. Ivypool probably wouldn't be a bad leader at all, I guess I'm still judging her from the time she almost had, would have, killed an already dead medicine cat, who did nothing to her. And then she actually did kill the soul of Antpelt, and didn't he help her out a few chapters before that? I know she was doing it to protect herself, so she wouldn't be exposed, so she could eventually help her clan, but it still doesn't really sit right with me. I'll probably get some hate for this, but that's just my opinion, I really like Ivypool, but still, she literally killed a cat out of existence. But, maybe that just shows that she does have good leadership qualities, because she's willing to do whatever it takes to help out her clan. Now I'm conflicted. The thing is, she was put in a situation where they were testing her skills. She internally did not want to do it, but to keep her undercover job she didn't have a choice. Ivypool has shown deep regret for what she's done in the past, to the point of PTSD. She's talked about how she didn't even want to use skills from her DF training, because it's too brutal and the thought of it unsettled her. When put into a situation where she doesn't have a choice, it's hard to for me to personally judge her for that. The DF cats had not qualms with killing trainees, over the smallest things like falling asleep during training, or randomly for fun and trying to intentionally drown them. Antpelt took up the challenge to fight Ivypool, one of them weren't going to walk away from it regardless. And the second time around, at that point he's accepted and fully embraced being in the ranks of the other DF cats, there was no turning back for him from the start. But as I said, and you have, she still makes hard choices when she has too. Despite not wanting to fight and kill Antpelt she did, to gain more of the DF cat's approval and trust, and was able to move up in their ranks while under cover. Despite not wanting to hurt Flametail, she was willing to do it to prove her loyalty to one of the DF leaders who were suspicious of her. Despite not wanting to use her DF skills again, she willingly taught others some of it, and even utilized them in the battle against the badgers to protect her clan. She is willing to make hard decisions for the greater good, but it doesn't take away from her morals or I guess the cat version of her humility. It shows she's not a perfect cat, and even complexed, and gives more layers to her character. You're right, I guess I didn't think about how Ivypool felt about having to do that for the sake of her clan. It makes me pity her more than be disappointed with her now. You're also right about it adding layers to her character...now that I think of it, I wouldn't mind if she was leader, I'd still prefer Molewhisker, but I wouldn't mind Ivypool at all.
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Post by cappuccinokitty on Feb 21, 2020 16:26:27 GMT -5
People want Ivystar for quite a few reasons. She's already had a POV, so we've seen her from her kithood and up. She's had plenty of screentime and development as a character in general. She's turned out to be a great mate, mother, and mentor. She's shown leadership skills in the DF, her own Clan, and last minute situations. She's a good fighter, good hunter, and good with strategies. She's shown to have good morality, but doesn't mind making tough choices. She's been relatively relevant in the story, even though she's no longer a protag. She's also at a really good age range for choice, not to old or too young. She's also not too closely related to Firestar as well, she's his Great-great niece. Those are all really good points. Ivypool probably wouldn't be a bad leader at all, I guess I'm still judging her from the time she almost had, would have, killed an already dead medicine cat, who did nothing to her. And then she actually did kill the soul of Antpelt, and didn't he help her out a few chapters before that? I know she was doing it to protect herself, so she wouldn't be exposed, so she could eventually help her clan, but it still doesn't really sit right with me. I'll probably get some hate for this, but that's just my opinion, I really like Ivypool, but still, she literally killed a cat out of existence. But, maybe that just shows that she does have good leadership qualities, because she's willing to do whatever it takes to help out her clan. Now I'm conflicted. I don't blame you, it wasn't her greatest moment. But, try to picture yourself in Ivypool's shoes, or paws. The first two times, she tries to save/help him. Thistleclaw injures him badly, so Ivypool tries to wake him up, sending him back to reality, where she hopes he will be saved. Antpelt has proven multiple times that he would fight for the DF cats. He claims that the DF cat's meant more to him than his WC clanmates, and is shown to be eager when Tigerstar speaks to destroying the clans. So when Ivypool is ordered to fight against him, she doesn't intend on killing him. In the spur of the moment, she will instinctively try to survive, knowing that if she didn't kill Antpelt, her cover would be blown, and the DF cats would kill her. A matter of kill or be killed, except Antpelt, siding with the DF, is essentially an enemy. Even seasons after she kills him, she shows remorse and is still haunted by the memory, as Jayfeather can sense her emotions/memories. I'm not excusing her for killing a cat, but she was under a very pressurising situation, and that caused her to take desperate measures for her own survival. Some might see it as selfish, I see it as survival.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:33:57 GMT -5
Those are all really good points. Ivypool probably wouldn't be a bad leader at all, I guess I'm still judging her from the time she almost had, would have, killed an already dead medicine cat, who did nothing to her. And then she actually did kill the soul of Antpelt, and didn't he help her out a few chapters before that? I know she was doing it to protect herself, so she wouldn't be exposed, so she could eventually help her clan, but it still doesn't really sit right with me. I'll probably get some hate for this, but that's just my opinion, I really like Ivypool, but still, she literally killed a cat out of existence. But, maybe that just shows that she does have good leadership qualities, because she's willing to do whatever it takes to help out her clan. Now I'm conflicted. I don't blame you, it wasn't her greatest moment. But, try to picture yourself in Ivypool's shoes, or paws. The first two times, she tries to save/help him. Thistleclaw injures him badly, so Ivypool tries to wake him up, sending him back to reality, where she hopes he will be saved. Antpelt has proven multiple times that he would fight for the DF cats. He claims that the DF cat's meant more to him than his WC clanmates, and is shown to be eager when Tigerstar speaks to destroying the clans. So when Ivypool is ordered to fight against him, she doesn't intend on killing him. In the spur of the moment, she will instinctively try to survive, knowing that if she didn't kill Antpelt, her cover would be blown, and the DF cats would kill her. A matter of kill or be killed, except Antpelt, siding with the DF, is essentially an enemy. Even seasons after she kills him, she shows remorse and is still haunted by the memory, as Jayfeather can sense her emotions/memories. I'm not excusing her for killing a cat, but she was under a very pressurising situation, and that caused her to take desperate measures for her own survival. Some might see it as selfish, I see it as survival. You're right, but I am still a little disappointed in her about Flametail, but I do understand why she felt like she had to do what she did.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Feb 21, 2020 19:12:27 GMT -5
I'm in the minority, because I would not at all mind if we got Berrystar ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ Since he's deputy now, he's got a legit shot, and I am totally here for it.
It would be practically impossible for the Erins to write him as a wannabe Firestar (as much as I love the guy, I want the Clan shaken up), and he wouldn't be as boring as Bramblestar (at least he was until this arc, that is). Short of completely assassinating Berrynose's character to put him in a box, he would make for a unique ThunderClan leader for this generation. He would probably be antagonistic, aggressive, quick to be offended, and an all-around interesting leader. We need that for ThunderClan, imo.
As for a more sensible leader...I like the idea of Lilystar. People say she's unknown, but maybe that's what we need, too. Or Stemleaf? He's done pretty swell as a warrior so far. I love how much personality they've been giving him lately, and I can imagine him to be very levelheaded, yet stern and ready to do what needs to be done for the greater good (example: his talk about "getting rid of" Bramblestar -- which I took to imply killing him -- before someone was like, "Woah, we gotta be careful. The ghost probably wants his body back" lol) of not only his own Clan, but all the Clans.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 19:19:08 GMT -5
I'm in the minority, because I would not at all mind if we got Berrystar ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ Since he's deputy now, he's got a legit shot, and I am totally here for it. It would be practically impossible for the Erins to write him as a wannabe Firestar (as much as I love the guy, I want the Clan shaken up), and he wouldn't be as boring as Bramblestar (at least he was until this arc, that is). Short of completely assassinating Berrynose's character to put him in a box, he would make for a unique ThunderClan leader for this generation. He would probably be antagonistic, aggressive, quick to be offended, and an all-around interesting leader. We need that for ThunderClan, imo. As for a more sensible leader...I like the idea of Lilystar. People say she's unknown, but maybe that's what we need, too. Or Stemleaf? He's done pretty swell as a warrior so far. I love how much personality they've been giving him lately, and I can imagine him to be very levelheaded, yet stern and ready to do what needs to be done for the greater good (example: his talk about "getting rid of" Bramblestar -- which I took to imply killing him -- before someone was like, "Woah, we gotta be careful. The ghost probably wants his body back" lol) of not only his own Clan, but all the Clans. I would LOVE to see ThunderClan with a less than kind leader, who doesn't try to help out the other clans like Firestar and Bramblestar did. I know it's a little rude, but WindClan and ShadowClan was SUPER rude to them whenever they tried to help, it'd be funny, if one time, they were having a crisis, and ThunderClan was no where to be found helping, leaving them dumbfounded. I know it's a pride thing with them, but would it really kill them to show some manners? And actually thank ThunderClan instead of trash talking them all the time?
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Feb 21, 2020 19:29:06 GMT -5
I'm in the minority, because I would not at all mind if we got Berrystar ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ Since he's deputy now, he's got a legit shot, and I am totally here for it. It would be practically impossible for the Erins to write him as a wannabe Firestar (as much as I love the guy, I want the Clan shaken up), and he wouldn't be as boring as Bramblestar (at least he was until this arc, that is). Short of completely assassinating Berrynose's character to put him in a box, he would make for a unique ThunderClan leader for this generation. He would probably be antagonistic, aggressive, quick to be offended, and an all-around interesting leader. We need that for ThunderClan, imo. As for a more sensible leader...I like the idea of Lilystar. People say she's unknown, but maybe that's what we need, too. Or Stemleaf? He's done pretty swell as a warrior so far. I love how much personality they've been giving him lately, and I can imagine him to be very levelheaded, yet stern and ready to do what needs to be done for the greater good (example: his talk about "getting rid of" Bramblestar -- which I took to imply killing him -- before someone was like, "Woah, we gotta be careful. The ghost probably wants his body back" lol) of not only his own Clan, but all the Clans. I would LOVE to see ThunderClan with a less than kind leader, who doesn't try to help out the other clans like Firestar and Bramblestar did. I know it's a little rude, but WindClan and ShadowClan was SUPER rude to them whenever they tried to help, it'd be funny, if one time, they were having a crisis, and ThunderClan was no where to be found helping, leaving them dumbfounded. I know it's a pride thing with them, but would it really kill them to show some manners? And actually thank ThunderClan instead of trash talking them all the time? Exactly this!!! Berrystar is the perfect leader to do that sort of thing. I want a ThunderClan leader to be like, "Oh, y'all don't want our help? :') Okay!" and then when it gets worse and they need help, Berrystar would remind them, "You didn't want our help, right?" and shrug. I can imagine him being like, "lol did y'all forget how much trash you talked about me, my siblings, and my mom when I was younger -- and even now, just a couple moons ago? 'Cause I remember!" because growing up, he and the other non-Clanborns were always shat on by the other Clans when they went on their ThunderClan-is-full-of-kittypets-and-weaklings spiels. But see, morally speaking, Firestar and Bramblestar still feel the need to help in spite of how much crap is thrown at them. I woudn't be surprised if Squirrelflight was the same. If she were leader, she would push aside her grudges and help (as we saw in her recent book), and I don't want that anymore. ThunderClan's done enough for them. Like you said, it's sooooo petty...but I just want ThunderClan to tell the other Clans to get lost for once!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 19:32:27 GMT -5
I would LOVE to see ThunderClan with a less than kind leader, who doesn't try to help out the other clans like Firestar and Bramblestar did. I know it's a little rude, but WindClan and ShadowClan was SUPER rude to them whenever they tried to help, it'd be funny, if one time, they were having a crisis, and ThunderClan was no where to be found helping, leaving them dumbfounded. I know it's a pride thing with them, but would it really kill them to show some manners? And actually thank ThunderClan instead of trash talking them all the time? Exactly this!!! Berrystar is the perfect leader to do that sort of thing. I want a ThunderClan leader to be like, "Oh, y'all don't want our help? :') Okay!" and then when it gets worse and they need help, Berrystar would remind them, "You didn't want our help, right?" and shrug. I can imagine him being like, "lol did y'all forget how much trash you talked about me, my siblings, and my mom when I was younger -- and even now, just a couple moons ago? 'Cause I remember!" because growing up, he and the other non-Clanborns were always shat on by the other Clans when they went on their ThunderClan-is-full-of-kittypets-and-weaklings spiels. But see, morally speaking, Firestar and Bramblestar still feel the need to help in spite of how much crap is thrown at them. I woudn't be surprised if Squirrelflight was the same. If she were leader, she would push aside her grudges and help (as we saw in her recent book), and I don't want that anymore. ThunderClan's done enough for them. Like you said, it's sooooo petty...but I just want ThunderClan to tell the other Clans to get lost for once! Right? Ever since Bluestar, ThunderClan has been the saints of the forest, always doing the right and noble thing, and what do they get in return? Absolute squat, that's what. They should still help RiverClan and SkyClan though, since they actually appreciate their help.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 21, 2020 20:18:27 GMT -5
I'm in the minority, because I would not at all mind if we got Berrystar ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ Since he's deputy now, he's got a legit shot, and I am totally here for it. It would be practically impossible for the Erins to write him as a wannabe Firestar (as much as I love the guy, I want the Clan shaken up), and he wouldn't be as boring as Bramblestar (at least he was until this arc, that is). Short of completely assassinating Berrynose's character to put him in a box, he would make for a unique ThunderClan leader for this generation. He would probably be antagonistic, aggressive, quick to be offended, and an all-around interesting leader. We need that for ThunderClan, imo. As for a more sensible leader...I like the idea of Lilystar. People say she's unknown, but maybe that's what we need, too. Or Stemleaf? He's done pretty swell as a warrior so far. I love how much personality they've been giving him lately, and I can imagine him to be very levelheaded, yet stern and ready to do what needs to be done for the greater good (example: his talk about "getting rid of" Bramblestar -- which I took to imply killing him -- before someone was like, "Woah, we gotta be careful. The ghost probably wants his body back" lol) of not only his own Clan, but all the Clans. I want Rosestar with Stemleaf deputy (since he's still young). Lilystar would be good too. I just love Stemleaf. He's such a good boi.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 20:22:35 GMT -5
*Ottersplash*I'm really curious on why everyone seems to want Lilystar, the only thing I remember her doing is being a foster mother to Twigbranch, which is a fantastic thing to do, but it doesn't scream leader to me. I'm not opposed to the idea, I mean, she's really nice, and I'd love a kit of Brackenfur and Sorreltail's to be leader, but I'm just curious as to what makes people feel like she'd be a good leader.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 21, 2020 20:25:34 GMT -5
ChickenI mean, her gentle and kind nature would make an interesting leader. I think the idea of a motherly leader who treats all her clanmates with the love and kindness of a mother, who would defend them fiercely, would make a more interesting leader to read about. I think people want her or Rosestar or Stemstar is because we want something new out of leaders that aren't...Bramblestars Lionstar would be Bramblestar 2.0 and just not interesting
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 20:27:29 GMT -5
Chicken I mean, her gentle and kind nature would make an interesting leader. I think the idea of a motherly leader who treats all her clanmates with the love and kindness of a mother, who would defend them fiercely, would make a more interesting leader to read about. I think people want her or Rosestar or Stemstar is because we want something new out of leaders that aren't...Bramblestars Lionstar would be Bramblestar 2.0 and just not interesting Oh, that would be really sweet I agree that Lionblaze would not be a good or interesting leader at all
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 21, 2020 20:32:34 GMT -5
Chicken I mean, her gentle and kind nature would make an interesting leader. I think the idea of a motherly leader who treats all her clanmates with the love and kindness of a mother, who would defend them fiercely, would make a more interesting leader to read about. I think people want her or Rosestar or Stemstar is because we want something new out of leaders that aren't...Bramblestars Lionstar would be Bramblestar 2.0 and just not interesting Oh, that would be really sweet I agree that Lionblaze would not be a good or interesting leader at all Bramblestar also noted Lilyheart to be a very brave and devoted cat. I just think she'd be an interesting choice. But almost anything is better than Lionblaze. I feel he's done his part and that there are more interesting options (also, I'm all for some more she-cat leaders as Mistystar and Leafstar are ANCIENT)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 20:37:19 GMT -5
Oh, that would be really sweet I agree that Lionblaze would not be a good or interesting leader at all Bramblestar also noted Lilyheart to be a very brave and devoted cat. I just think she'd be an interesting choice. But almost anything is better than Lionblaze. I feel he's done his part and that there are more interesting options (also, I'm all for some more she-cat leaders as Mistystar and Leafstar are ANCIENT) All of the RiverClan cats in power are pretty much ancient lol, but Leafstar is too. I hope that Hawkwing picks Sandynose as his deputy, I know he's not a she-cat, but I think he'd be the best choice, and I'm not just saying that because he's my second favorite character. I do hope he dies valiantly before coming leader though, because I fear that he'll become ruined if they make him leader. You know what position REALLY needs a she-cat? WindClan medicine cat. For generations WindClan medicine cats have been toms
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 22, 2020 2:26:32 GMT -5
Lilyheart gets a lot of spotlight in BrS, she's a good character to read about, and also a great mother and clanmate. I think she's a bit outside the norm. And not just a love interest default like Stemleaf, or gets every apprentice like Rosepetal.
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