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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:05:24 GMT -5
If Mudclaw had been leader, who do you think he would have picked as his deputy? My bet would be on either Tornear or Webfoot, those three seemed really close, like The Three Musketeers, The Three Stooges, The Three Amigos, The Three Blind Mice, you get the point. It seemed like they were on every single patrol together almost.
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Post by Oceanmist97 on Jan 27, 2020 12:12:06 GMT -5
Tornear seems like the safest bet. But I wonder if he would have offered Ashfoot the position as well? She was well-respected in WindClan, hence why Onestar had chosen her.
However, if Mudclaw had succeeded in killing Onewhisker and becoming leader, Ashfoot may have rejected to be his deputy. She might have even be killed too to ensure Mudclaw's leadership. That would be a pretty terrible PR move on Mudclaw's part so I doubt it, but it's something to think about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:18:04 GMT -5
Tornear seems like the safest bet. But I wonder if he would have offered Ashfoot the position as well? She was well-respected in WindClan, hence why Onestar had chosen her. However, if Mudclaw had succeeded in killing Onewhisker and becoming leader, Ashfoot may have rejected to be his deputy. She might have even be killed too to ensure Mudclaw's leadership. That would be a pretty terrible PR move on Mudclaw's part so I doubt it, but it's something to think about. I don't think Mudclaw would have actually killed anyone, I think he would have just tried to chase Onewhisker out. He's aggressive, yes, but he really doesn't seem like the killing type, at least not to me. He just seems like this guy who wants what he thinks is best for his clan, and who gets a bad rep, because he wasn't all sunshine and rainbows like Tallstar and Onewhisker.
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Post by Oceanmist97 on Jan 27, 2020 12:23:40 GMT -5
I don't think Mudclaw would have actually killed anyone, I think he would have just tried to chase Onewhisker out. He's aggressive, yes, but he really doesn't seem like the killing type, at least not to me. He just seems like this guy who wants what he thinks is best for his clan, and who gets a bad rep, because he wasn't all sunshine and rainbows like Tallstar and Onewhisker. I agree, I think he would have tried to drive Onewhisker out before resorting to killing. But at the same time, I think Mudclaw would have been willing to go through with it if he had to. Mudclaw really did believe that Onewhisker was lying about the whole situation (that, or Tallstar had lost his wits) and Mudclaw strikes me as the kind of cat who would have done anything for his Clan, even the unethical things.
I still think Mudclaw would have probably been a better leader than Onestar. Honestly, anyone but Onestar would have been better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:25:28 GMT -5
I don't think Mudclaw would have actually killed anyone, I think he would have just tried to chase Onewhisker out. He's aggressive, yes, but he really doesn't seem like the killing type, at least not to me. He just seems like this guy who wants what he thinks is best for his clan, and who gets a bad rep, because he wasn't all sunshine and rainbows like Tallstar and Onewhisker. I agree, I think he would have tried to drive Onewhisker out before resorting to killing. But at the same time, I think Mudclaw would have been willing to go through with it if he had to. Mudclaw really did believe that Onewhisker was lying about the whole situation (that, or Tallstar had lost his wits) and Mudclaw strikes me as the kind of cat who would have done anything for his Clan, even the unethical things.
I still think Mudclaw would have probably been a better leader than Onestar (I think anyone could have been).
I think a rat could have been a better leader than Onestar lol But I mean, Onestar wasn't THAT bad, he did keep WindClan together during The Dark Forest Battle, and all that stuff, but still...he turned into SUCH A JERK, and all of his clanmates started being jerks.
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Post by Oceanmist97 on Jan 27, 2020 12:27:20 GMT -5
I think a rat could have been a better leader than Onestar lol But I mean, Onestar wasn't THAT bad, he did keep WindClan together during The Dark Forest Battle, and all that stuff, but still...he turned into SUCH A JERK, and all of his clanmates started being jerks. Yeah, he really was the worst lmao.
He's one of my favorite cats to hate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:30:25 GMT -5
I think a rat could have been a better leader than Onestar lol But I mean, Onestar wasn't THAT bad, he did keep WindClan together during The Dark Forest Battle, and all that stuff, but still...he turned into SUCH A JERK, and all of his clanmates started being jerks. Yeah, he really was the worst lmao.
He's one of my favorite cats to hate.
Mine too, I hate him more than any cat in the entire series. Like, not only did he take the ONE thing Tallstar expected from him, and completely set it on fire, but he also insulted Bramblestar for NO reason, and he continued to insult Firestar, the guy who literally gave up one of his lives for him. Oh, and he caused the deaths of Crowfrost, Wasptail, and Kinkfur. Not to mention, he's a HUGE hypocrite and a traitor
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 27, 2020 12:47:23 GMT -5
We already know who he would have picked because he says so in the book. I don't know why people never bring it up, but it was said he'd pick Hawkfrost as his deputy
"“Tell him what else I promised,” Mudclaw snarled from beneath Hawkfrost’s paws. “Tell him how you came to me and offered your help if I made you WindClan’s deputy . . . and helped you take over RiverClan later.” "
Mudclaw was in the business of handing out positions for favors, he didn't exactly have much in the way of ethics and his choice in deputy being Hawkfrost of all cats reflects that. His friends come second to people who are useful to getting him power.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:57:26 GMT -5
We already know who he would have picked because he says so in the book. I don't know why people never bring it up, but it was said he'd pick Hawkfrost as his deputy "“Tell him what else I promised,” Mudclaw snarled from beneath Hawkfrost’s paws. “Tell him how you came to me and offered your help if I made you WindClan’s deputy . . . and helped you take over RiverClan later.” " Mudclaw was in the business of handing out positions for favors, he didn't exactly have much in the way of ethics and his choice in deputy being Hawkfrost of all cats reflects that. His friends come second to people who are useful to getting him power. He probably would have betrayed Hawkfrost in the end
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Jan 27, 2020 13:00:32 GMT -5
Or at least in the case of that desperate moment, yeah, Hawkfrost would have become deputy. But assuming Tallstar didn't change his mind last minute before his death (smooth move Tallstar), Mudclaw would probably have picked either Ashfoot or Tornear. Or maybe he might have even picked Onewhisker, to ensure some form of allying between the two clans. Mudclaw definitely wasn't dense or just plain power-hungry by all means. Who knows, given the chance, he might have made a good diplomat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 13:04:59 GMT -5
Or at least in the case of that desperate moment, yeah, Hawkfrost would have become deputy. But assuming Tallstar didn't change his mind last minute before his death (smooth move Tallstar), Mudclaw would probably have picked either Ashfoot or Tornear. Or maybe he might have even picked Onewhisker, to ensure some form of allying between the two clans. Mudclaw definitely wasn't dense or just plain power-hungry by all means. Who knows, given the chance, he might have made a good diplomat. Thank you! Mudclaw wasn't a villain at all. I bet if this was from WindClan's POV, he'd be seen as like maybe a Thornclaw? Like he's a jerk, but he's not a disloyal murderer.
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Post by kitkat on Jan 27, 2020 13:11:06 GMT -5
Tbh, I didn't like Mudclaw much, but I hated Onestar. He denied dying cats the essential herbs they needed, disrespected Bramblestar by verbally attacking him unfairly about his heritage for literally no reason, and did so many more things that I can't remember atm because I'm tired lol. Anywayyys, I just wish that Tallstar had chosen any of the other cats in Windclan, but no, he had to pick the worst two candidates for leader. urgh. I reckon he would've picked Tornear bc he was always loyal to him, but I would've preferred Ashfoot Imo.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 13:13:19 GMT -5
Tbh, I didn't like Mudclaw much, but I hated Onestar. He denied dying cats the essential herbs they needed, disrespected Bramblestar by verbally attacking him unfairly about his heritage for literally no reason, and did so many more things that I can't remember atm because I'm tired lol. Anywayyys, I just wish that Tallstar had chosen any of the other cats in Windclan, but no, he had to pick the worst two candidates for leader. urgh. I reckon he would've picked Tornear bc he was always loyal to him, but I would've preferred Ashfoot Imo. I don't see why so many people would have opted for Ashfoot. She's a nice cat, but she doesn't seem to have that much of a backbone. But eh, at least she got to be deputy for a little while, unlike Tornear, who would have been the best choice in my opinion. He was on good terms with ThunderClan as long as they didn't cross him, and he has had more apprentices than anyone that we know of in WindClan, so he must have something going for him there.
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Post by kitkat on Jan 27, 2020 13:23:40 GMT -5
Tbh, I didn't like Mudclaw much, but I hated Onestar. He denied dying cats the essential herbs they needed, disrespected Bramblestar by verbally attacking him unfairly about his heritage for literally no reason, and did so many more things that I can't remember atm because I'm tired lol. Anywayyys, I just wish that Tallstar had chosen any of the other cats in Windclan, but no, he had to pick the worst two candidates for leader. urgh. I reckon he would've picked Tornear bc he was always loyal to him, but I would've preferred Ashfoot Imo. I don't see why so many people would have opted for Ashfoot. She's a nice cat, but she doesn't seem to have that much of a backbone. But eh, at least she got to be deputy for a little while, unlike Tornear, who would have been the best choice in my opinion. He was on good terms with ThunderClan as long as they didn't cross him, and he has had more apprentices than anyone that we know of in WindClan, so he must have something going for him there. Yeah I guess. I would've preferred Stagleap (bc in Redtails debt (I think it was that one? Haven't read it in a while) he actually had personality, big buff wc warrior that could even kick Tigerclaws a$$. But I'm pretty sure by TNP he was dead or an elder, which is kinda disappointing. Ashfoot was a good deputy to me, at least what I remember of her.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 13:24:58 GMT -5
I don't see why so many people would have opted for Ashfoot. She's a nice cat, but she doesn't seem to have that much of a backbone. But eh, at least she got to be deputy for a little while, unlike Tornear, who would have been the best choice in my opinion. He was on good terms with ThunderClan as long as they didn't cross him, and he has had more apprentices than anyone that we know of in WindClan, so he must have something going for him there. Yeah I guess. I would've preferred Stagleap (bc in Redtails debt (I think it was that one? Haven't read it in a while) he actually had personality, big buff wc warrior that could even kick Tigerclaws a$$. But I'm pretty sure by TNP he was dead or an elder, which is kinda disappointing. Ashfoot was a good deputy to me, at least what I remember of her. Omg I loveeeed Stagleap, not only in Redtail's Debt, but in Tallstar's Revenge as well. Guess what, Stagleap is Onestar's FATHER. He's also the father of Ashfoot and Morningflower
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 27, 2020 14:25:12 GMT -5
We already know who he would have picked because he says so in the book. I don't know why people never bring it up, but it was said he'd pick Hawkfrost as his deputy "“Tell him what else I promised,” Mudclaw snarled from beneath Hawkfrost’s paws. “Tell him how you came to me and offered your help if I made you WindClan’s deputy . . . and helped you take over RiverClan later.” " Mudclaw was in the business of handing out positions for favors, he didn't exactly have much in the way of ethics and his choice in deputy being Hawkfrost of all cats reflects that. His friends come second to people who are useful to getting him power. He probably would have betrayed Hawkfrost in the end What evidence is there of that? You'd think that Mudclaw in a moment where he's trying to plead his innocence and deflect blame would have mentioned something like that, but even his version of events has him agreeing to go help his new deputy conquer Riverclan immediately afterwards. I can only imagine that the actual plan was worse if that's what he thought was a good defense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 14:31:39 GMT -5
He probably would have betrayed Hawkfrost in the end What evidence is there of that? You'd think that Mudclaw in a moment where he's trying to plead his innocence and deflect blame would have mentioned something like that, but even his version of events has him agreeing to go help his new deputy conquer Riverclan immediately afterwards. I can only imagine that the actual plan was worse if that's what he thought was a good defense. I really don't understand why he would say something like that...he honestly doesn't seem like a bad guy
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 27, 2020 14:40:14 GMT -5
What evidence is there of that? You'd think that Mudclaw in a moment where he's trying to plead his innocence and deflect blame would have mentioned something like that, but even his version of events has him agreeing to go help his new deputy conquer Riverclan immediately afterwards. I can only imagine that the actual plan was worse if that's what he thought was a good defense. I really don't understand why he would say something like that...he honestly doesn't seem like a bad guy He only doesn't if you ignore the scene where he actually does something bad. As far as we know, Mudclaw was telling the truth or something close to it in that scene. There is not a single source that doubts him on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 14:45:07 GMT -5
I really don't understand why he would say something like that...he honestly doesn't seem like a bad guy He only doesn't if you ignore the scene where he actually does something bad. As far as we know, Mudclaw was telling the truth or something close to it in that scene. There is not a single source that doubts him on that. I guess you're right, but he could have just been desperate, like...other characters have done some SUPER shady things because of desperation or something, but it doesn't make them particularly bad
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 27, 2020 22:42:16 GMT -5
To put it simply, if he was truely some "blood thirsty murderer" I doubt he would have gotten into StarClan. And no, Ashfur being there doesn't matter considering Mudclaw died first, sigh. I believe he was a good cat, who got duped because he wasn't besties with the main character. It's a shame.
Anyways, I think he would have picked Webfoot for his loyalty, but Tornear for their experience. Really depends on which he favored in those aspects.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 7:30:52 GMT -5
To put it simply, if he was truely some "blood thirsty murderer" I doubt he would have gotten into StarClan. And no, Ashfur being there doesn't matter considering Mudclaw died first, sigh. I believe he was a good cat, who got duped because he wasn't besties with the main character. It's a shame. Anyways, I think he would have picked Webfoot for his loyalty, but Tornear for their experience. Really depends on which he favored in those aspects. I agree completely. That's a good way to look at it I didn't even think about him choosing them for the qualities he saw in them lol I just thought, well, one is his brother, and one is his loyal apprentice/best friend
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