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Post by Flamefrost on Jan 21, 2020 7:50:53 GMT -5
Now dont get me wrong, I hate the guy. However, I've noticed a lot of people saying that Ashfur backed out of Hawkfrost's plan last minute out of fear, which is why he ran back to camp to tell the Clan.
I have another theory. Ashfur always intended to betray Hawkfrost. His plan was to bring ThunderClan to a scene of Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw killing Firestar. This would have devastated Squirrelflight even more, as it would have been her own mate responsible for her father's death. And it would have painted him the hero for telling the Clan.
I don't think Ashfur would have accepted to be ruled by Bramblestar, and this plan would work even if Firestar lived as Brambleclaw would still be branded a traitor. I dont think he counted on Brambleclaw remaining loyal, given that even Hawkfrost was dead certain he was evil.
The fear scent could have been an act, or he was terrified of the plan going south (ie. If Hawkfrost revealed his part in it)
Thoughts?
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maggotpaw
named my son maggotkit because i hate him
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Post by maggotpaw on Jan 21, 2020 14:35:57 GMT -5
It was definitely his intent for Squirrelflight to see her own mate killing her dad. Everyone took his 'fear scent' too seriously - he's a better actor than people give him credit for and had to play the role of the 'scared bystander' (of course, it was also mixed with the legitimate fear you'd expect from somebody commiting treason for the first time).
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Jan 21, 2020 15:08:08 GMT -5
That’s how I’ve always seen it as.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 21, 2020 23:06:06 GMT -5
I don't think Ashfur is very smart. He doesn't come up with plans, he just sees an opportunity and seizes it. Him having such a convoluted plan seems a bit too clever for him. That said, no, he was definitely not running back to camp out of cowardice, it was very clearly his intent to follow the plan and make Squirrelflight suffer more. The long term consquences were irrelevant in his mind to the short term gain.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 22, 2020 0:55:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he was trying to frame Brambleclaw. Yes, the whole idea to kill Firestar was probably Hawkfrost, I mean he's very manipulative and smart. But Ashfur has no reason to have a fear scent, he was most likely acting, because he very much wanted to kill Firestar, to hurt Squirrelflight. I'm pretty sure he wanted Squirrelflight to find Brambleclaw killing Firestar, or at least frame him even if he didn't. On top of that, it would have also tied up Hawkfrost as a loose end as well, similar to how Hawkfrost tried to silence Mudclaw. Ashfur could have killed two birds, in this case, three, with one stone. Both of Tigerstar's sons get exiled/punished, Squirrelflight is hurt, and left in grief, he has his revenge, and heck Squirrel would even be single. In the end, he would win it all most likely. I believe this was definitely an opportunity he saw and tried to take. He saw he could frame Brambleclaw and took the opportunity to do it. And even though it didn't work he still walked away from the whole thing a free cat and the only lead against him was Hawk's words. He took the role of innocent bystander, and played it very well, in fact he could have been seen as a hero if he had got his way, because they would have caught Tigerstar's sons in the act and bring them to justice thanks to Ashfur. He is very much an opportunist, and I think this is just another case of that.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 22, 2020 9:27:13 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he was trying to frame Brambleclaw. Yes, the whole idea to kill Firestar was probably Hawkfrost, I mean he's very manipulative and smart. But Ashfur has no reason to have a fear scent, he was most likely acting, because he very much wanted to kill Firestar, to hurt Squirrelflight. I'm pretty sure he wanted Squirrelflight to find Brambleclaw killing Firestar, or at least frame him even if he didn't. On top of that, it would have also tied up Hawkfrost as a loose end as well, similar to how Hawkfrost tried to silence Mudclaw. Ashfur could have killed two birds, in this case, three, with one stone. Both of Tigerstar's sons get exiled/punished, Squirrelflight is hurt, and left in grief, he has his revenge, and heck Squirrel would even be single. In the end, he would win it all most likely. I believe this was definitely an opportunity he saw and tried to take. He saw he could frame Brambleclaw and took the opportunity to do it. And even though it didn't work he still walked away from the whole thing a free cat and the only lead against him was Hawk's words. He took the role of innocent bystander, and played it very well, in fact he could have been seen as a hero if he had got his way, because they would have caught Tigerstar's sons in the act and bring them to justice thanks to Ashfur. He is very much an opportunist, and I think this is just another case of that. Why wouldn't he have fear scent? He's committing treason and murder for the first time in his life and he has to make sure he doesn't get caught. Of course he'd be terrified and anxious about things going wrong.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 22, 2020 22:57:20 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he was trying to frame Brambleclaw. Yes, the whole idea to kill Firestar was probably Hawkfrost, I mean he's very manipulative and smart. But Ashfur has no reason to have a fear scent, he was most likely acting, because he very much wanted to kill Firestar, to hurt Squirrelflight. I'm pretty sure he wanted Squirrelflight to find Brambleclaw killing Firestar, or at least frame him even if he didn't. On top of that, it would have also tied up Hawkfrost as a loose end as well, similar to how Hawkfrost tried to silence Mudclaw. Ashfur could have killed two birds, in this case, three, with one stone. Both of Tigerstar's sons get exiled/punished, Squirrelflight is hurt, and left in grief, he has his revenge, and heck Squirrel would even be single. In the end, he would win it all most likely. I believe this was definitely an opportunity he saw and tried to take. He saw he could frame Brambleclaw and took the opportunity to do it. And even though it didn't work he still walked away from the whole thing a free cat and the only lead against him was Hawk's words. He took the role of innocent bystander, and played it very well, in fact he could have been seen as a hero if he had got his way, because they would have caught Tigerstar's sons in the act and bring them to justice thanks to Ashfur. He is very much an opportunist, and I think this is just another case of that. Why wouldn't he have fear scent? He's committing treason and murder for the first time in his life and he has to make sure he doesn't get caught. Of course he'd be terrified and anxious about things going wrong. Because he's already showed no fear from speaking out against higher authorities before. When Leafpool spoke about Brambleclaw and her prophecy, and Firestar made him deputy, Ashfur spoke up against it. Openly challenging the choice in front of the whole clan, and even accusing them of bias, saying Leafpool chose Bramble because he's her sister's mate, etc. Which angered Squirrelflight to the point she was going to attack him but was stopped by Bramble. Leafpool was angry too, but like no other cats too mind of his challenge and words. And this all happened right before the whole Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw shake down. Not long after Ashfur tells Bramble about Birch's assessment, and at this point the Hawk's plan was already in motion. I feel that Ashfur was acting, and trying to feign innocence. It's kinda like how humans can fake expressions and emotions, to give other's different perspectives or insights. I personally think that this is the case, but it's just a possibility. The other is that, yeah he probably was actually scared, but maybe because he thought he might get caught. But at the same time, the only way he could have been caught is if Hawkfrost actually openly admitted this and even said his name, which never really happened. Even if it did, it wouldn't change the fact that Bramble and Hawk could have/or did kill a clan leader, which is punishable in any clan. Ashfur wouldn't have ran back to camp to tell others about what happened if he didn't want to get something out of it. Because the plan, or at least Hawk's plan, was obviously for him and Bramble to kill Fire in secret, and make it look like the fox trap killed him, so Bramble would quickly jump to leadership. Ashfur would hurt Squirrelflight by helping the death of her father, but I highly doubt he would have wanted Bramble as leader, considering he spoke out against him before, so to get rid of both of his problems he feigned innocence and revealed part of the situation. What's interesting though....is that in order to find Bramble, Ashfur didn't lead them back, obviously he wouldn't go back to the scene of the crime....But it's noted that Squirrelflight and Leafpool followed his fear scent back to to Hawk and Bramble. It's like it was intentionally there to lead them to the lake. Or it was just some crazy coincidence? When the confrontation in the fire happened, Ashfur made it obvious he really didn't have anything left to lose, but Squirrelflight had everything he wanted her to lose. I don't think he would have been scared at the idea of getting caught tbh, especially considering he's blatantly about to burn four cats alive and make it look like an accident. I feel that he was the same before, which shows just how much of an opportunist he is.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 23, 2020 17:30:09 GMT -5
Why wouldn't he have fear scent? He's committing treason and murder for the first time in his life and he has to make sure he doesn't get caught. Of course he'd be terrified and anxious about things going wrong. Because he's already showed no fear from speaking out against higher authorities before. When Leafpool spoke about Brambleclaw and her prophecy, and Firestar made him deputy, Ashfur spoke up against it. Openly challenging the choice in front of the whole clan, and even accusing them of bias, saying Leafpool chose Bramble because he's her sister's mate, etc. Which angered Squirrelflight to the point she was going to attack him but was stopped by Bramble. Leafpool was angry too, but like no other cats too mind of his challenge and words. And this all happened right before the whole Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw shake down. Not long after Ashfur tells Bramble about Birch's assessment, and at this point the Hawk's plan was already in motion. I feel that Ashfur was acting, and trying to feign innocence. It's kinda like how humans can fake expressions and emotions, to give other's different perspectives or insights. I personally think that this is the case, but it's just a possibility. The other is that, yeah he probably was actually scared, but maybe because he thought he might get caught. But at the same time, the only way he could have been caught is if Hawkfrost actually openly admitted this and even said his name, which never really happened. Even if it did, it wouldn't change the fact that Bramble and Hawk could have/or did kill a clan leader, which is punishable in any clan. Ashfur wouldn't have ran back to camp to tell others about what happened if he didn't want to get something out of it. Because the plan, or at least Hawk's plan, was obviously for him and Bramble to kill Fire in secret, and make it look like the fox trap killed him, so Bramble would quickly jump to leadership. Ashfur would hurt Squirrelflight by helping the death of her father, but I highly doubt he would have wanted Bramble as leader, considering he spoke out against him before, so to get rid of both of his problems he feigned innocence and revealed part of the situation. What's interesting though....is that in order to find Bramble, Ashfur didn't lead them back, obviously he wouldn't go back to the scene of the crime....But it's noted that Squirrelflight and Leafpool followed his fear scent back to to Hawk and Bramble. It's like it was intentionally there to lead them to the lake. Or it was just some crazy coincidence? When the confrontation in the fire happened, Ashfur made it obvious he really didn't have anything left to lose, but Squirrelflight had everything he wanted her to lose. I don't think he would have been scared at the idea of getting caught tbh, especially considering he's blatantly about to burn four cats alive and make it look like an accident. I feel that he was the same before, which shows just how much of an opportunist he is. I speak out against my government, yet if you asked me to shoot a leading member of it I’d be terrified. Just because Ashfur is okay with talking back to Firestar is a far sight from being complicit with murder. It’s not even in the same continent, how much more on edge he’d be in the second. I agree though that it was part of his plan to blurt it out to Squirrelflight. Or rather, his instinct. Ashfur isn’t smart in the sense of long term planning but as you said he has good intuition for exploiting a situation. I don’t know if he was planning to exploit the situation quite as masterfully as you described, more so just be the first on scene to show her Firestar’s corpse. To have manipulated it so both Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw are out requires more of a mastermind. However, maybe he picked up a few tricks in talking with Hawkfrost.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jan 23, 2020 17:32:05 GMT -5
I don't think Ashfur is very smart. He doesn't come up with plans, he just sees an opportunity and seizes it. Him having such a convoluted plan seems a bit too clever for him. That said, no, he was definitely not running back to camp out of cowardice, it was very clearly his intent to follow the plan and make Squirrelflight suffer more. The long term consquences were irrelevant in his mind to the short term gain. This is why I'm convinced he's not working alone in the latest arc.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 23, 2020 20:26:12 GMT -5
Because he's already showed no fear from speaking out against higher authorities before. When Leafpool spoke about Brambleclaw and her prophecy, and Firestar made him deputy, Ashfur spoke up against it. Openly challenging the choice in front of the whole clan, and even accusing them of bias, saying Leafpool chose Bramble because he's her sister's mate, etc. Which angered Squirrelflight to the point she was going to attack him but was stopped by Bramble. Leafpool was angry too, but like no other cats too mind of his challenge and words. And this all happened right before the whole Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw shake down. Not long after Ashfur tells Bramble about Birch's assessment, and at this point the Hawk's plan was already in motion. I feel that Ashfur was acting, and trying to feign innocence. It's kinda like how humans can fake expressions and emotions, to give other's different perspectives or insights. I personally think that this is the case, but it's just a possibility. The other is that, yeah he probably was actually scared, but maybe because he thought he might get caught. But at the same time, the only way he could have been caught is if Hawkfrost actually openly admitted this and even said his name, which never really happened. Even if it did, it wouldn't change the fact that Bramble and Hawk could have/or did kill a clan leader, which is punishable in any clan. Ashfur wouldn't have ran back to camp to tell others about what happened if he didn't want to get something out of it. Because the plan, or at least Hawk's plan, was obviously for him and Bramble to kill Fire in secret, and make it look like the fox trap killed him, so Bramble would quickly jump to leadership. Ashfur would hurt Squirrelflight by helping the death of her father, but I highly doubt he would have wanted Bramble as leader, considering he spoke out against him before, so to get rid of both of his problems he feigned innocence and revealed part of the situation. What's interesting though....is that in order to find Bramble, Ashfur didn't lead them back, obviously he wouldn't go back to the scene of the crime....But it's noted that Squirrelflight and Leafpool followed his fear scent back to to Hawk and Bramble. It's like it was intentionally there to lead them to the lake. Or it was just some crazy coincidence? When the confrontation in the fire happened, Ashfur made it obvious he really didn't have anything left to lose, but Squirrelflight had everything he wanted her to lose. I don't think he would have been scared at the idea of getting caught tbh, especially considering he's blatantly about to burn four cats alive and make it look like an accident. I feel that he was the same before, which shows just how much of an opportunist he is. I speak out against my government, yet if you asked me to shoot a leading member of it I’d be terrified. Just because Ashfur is okay with talking back to Firestar is a far sight from being complicit with murder. It’s not even in the same continent, how much more on edge he’d be in the second. I agree though that it was part of his plan to blurt it out to Squirrelflight. Or rather, his instinct. Ashfur isn’t smart in the sense of long term planning but as you said he has good intuition for exploiting a situation. I don’t know if he was planning to exploit the situation quite as masterfully as you described, more so just be the first on scene to show her Firestar’s corpse. To have manipulated it so both Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw are out requires more of a mastermind. However, maybe he picked up a few tricks in talking with Hawkfrost. It's alright, we can agree to disagree. But it is interesting to think about. Whether he was being genuine about the fear scent or not, he definitely did want to make it so Sqiurrelflight, and ironically Leafpool as well, saw the scene after "ratting" them out. But also wanted to seem like an innocent bystander. It makes me wonder if he really has accomplices in the new arc, maybe someone offered him an opportunity and he took it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 23, 2020 23:07:12 GMT -5
I speak out against my government, yet if you asked me to shoot a leading member of it I’d be terrified. Just because Ashfur is okay with talking back to Firestar is a far sight from being complicit with murder. It’s not even in the same continent, how much more on edge he’d be in the second. I agree though that it was part of his plan to blurt it out to Squirrelflight. Or rather, his instinct. Ashfur isn’t smart in the sense of long term planning but as you said he has good intuition for exploiting a situation. I don’t know if he was planning to exploit the situation quite as masterfully as you described, more so just be the first on scene to show her Firestar’s corpse. To have manipulated it so both Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw are out requires more of a mastermind. However, maybe he picked up a few tricks in talking with Hawkfrost. It's alright, we can agree to disagree. But it is interesting to think about. Whether he was being genuine about the fear scent or not, he definitely did want to make it so Sqiurrelflight, and ironically Leafpool as well, saw the scene after "ratting" them out. But also wanted to seem like an innocent bystander. It makes me wonder if he really has accomplices in the new arc, maybe someone offered him an opportunity and he took it. The part that cinches it for me is that Squirrelflight is listed among the code breakers yet he goes out of his way to try to weasel her out of it. That to me indicates that there are two minds at work here and the one who handed down the code breaker directive is not the same one inside of Bramblestar. The possessor was trying to make do the best they could with a proclamation that wasn't to their liking from higher-up.
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