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Post by quailberry on Dec 22, 2019 15:22:05 GMT -5
TW FOR ABUSE AND MINOR/ADULT RELATIONSHIPS
Or, for a better title, why I no longer want to.
One of my favourite children's authors, Robin Stevens, recently put this in a tweet. It was in repsonse to the current JK Rowling issue, but one thing she wrote stuck out to me enough that it is the basis for this whole thread.
"Children's authors have the deepest, most profound responsibility to make their readers feel safe."
When you choose to write a book for children, you are subsequently choosing to become their teacher-and there's no getting around that, because studies have proven that children view themselves and the world via the media they consume. Becoming a children's author is a big responsibility that I don't think enough people acknowledge. You are teaching children the messages and lessons that they wwill therefore apply to the real world.
Now, I can think of many good messages Warriors has sent children. The point is that I can think of many bad ones as well. My main gripe with it are the unhealthy relationships that are absolutely rife throughout the series.
1) Age gaps. I have no problem with age gaps; I have no problem with something like Blossomfall and Thornclaw. I have a very big problem when one of the partners is underage. Spottedleaf's Heart is a book that I have no doubt was written as a commentary on, uh....things that I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about here, but it was a really, really bad book. Nowhere does an adult cat save Spottedpaw from the 'relationship' and chase Thistleclaw out. Nowhere does an adult cat teach Spottedpaw, and by extension, the reader, about the dangers of an adult preying upon a child. Spottedpaw only breaks ties with Thistleclaw because she discovers he's been training in Kitty Hell. The danger, here, is shown in an entirely fictional light, rather than being portrayed as something that happens in real life, every day, and in every country and city.
Spottedleaf going on to, as a fully-grown independent adult, show interest in Firepaw (who is barely out of kithood) and continue to obsess over him for the rest of her afterlife is also dark and creepy as hell. I'm sorry, I know some people like Spottedleaf, and I know she is written to be a heroine. But it was wrong for her to prey on Firepaw as an apprentice, and continue to be interested in him from beyond the grave even as an adult. Again: this is wrong. And it is wrong that Spottedleaf, who is clearly in the wrong here, is never depicted as such. Her obsession over what is, in the Warriors universe, a child, is considered 'romantic' rather than creepy. And, once again: Dustpelt and Ferncloud. A couple that I used to love. But now, I can't look at it without feeling uncomfortable. If they had gotten together when they were both fully-grown adults, that would be fine. And yes, I know they were never 'together' until Ferncloud was a warrior: but Firestar's Quest is only set, what, half a year at best after The Darkest Hour, and they are promptly mates and Ferncloud is pregnant. You cannot convince me that Dustpelt did not have a thing for Ferncloud whilst she was still an apprentice in order for them to move that quickly. He didn't magically fall for her the moment she had her warrior ceremony.
2) Unhealthy relationships. Mainly, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight. Bramblestars' treatment of Squirrelflight in Squirrelflight's Hope was, to me, horrific. I can understand that couples fight sometimes. I can understand that as leader, Bramblestar has the power, and the right, to have more authority than the deputy. But when your deputy is also your wife, those two statuses become a lot more difficult to untangle. I am not saying I do not think a couple can lead a Clan, or anything in real life, to that matter. With more sensitive writing, this could work. But as is, when Bramblestar doubts, judges, undermines, and belittles his deputy for doing what she thought was right, he is subsequently doubting, judging, undermining, and belittling his wife.
Do you know what I wish the message of Squirrelflight's Hope was? To teach children that it's okay to break up, and it's okay for your parents to divorce. Divorce does not mean either parent is bad, necessarily; sometimes two people just find they no longer mesh. The 'hope' in the title therefore being Squirrelflight understanding that she can have a happy life even without a husband, that it's okay for her to move on from a significant other, that she is worthy and valid as her own cat and does not have to be seen as part of a pair. That would be a wonderful message. Instead, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight stay together even though the relationship is clearly unhealthy. Okay.
3) Ashfur. Oh, Ashfur, Ashfur, Ashfur. When I was a kid, I used to love Ashfur. I always acknowledged that he was a villain, but he was my favourite character. I felt so sorry for him. I felt he was a good cat deep down and simply lost control of his emotions. I believed what he did was proof of his love for Squirrelflight.
And I am angry that I believed that. The Erins fed little girls like me, all across the world, the message that you should forgive a man who tries to burn you and your children alive because you didn't want to marry him. That he only loved too much. That Squirrelflight led him on (and yes, I think Squirrelflight definitely treated Ashfur badly at times pre-breakup, but she did not lead him on.) And I'm not the only one who internalized that message. I remember when it was controversial to say you thought Ashfur deserved the Dark Forest. Now I'm an adult, I look at Ashfur with nothing but disgust. But I didn't learn that disgust from Warriors. I learnt it via learning about society and sexism: the real world. The books that created Ashfur seemed perfectly happy to allow this forgiving attitude of him to continue. The lesson here is that attempting to burn your ex-girlfriend alive for breaking up with you is not okay, but is forgivable.
Now, I believe that Ashfur can change. I believe that if he genuinely showed remorse, apologized, admitted what he did, subsequently got kicked out of the Clan, and spent the rest of his life being better than he was, I would be okay with him being in StarClan. Because he would be taken to StarClan in a period of time where he was a genuinely decent cat. Instead, he gets taken to StarClan a week after trying to burn his ex-girlfriend alive.
I believe the Erins, to some degree, regret this decision. I am aware of that. I acknowledge that. I respect and forgive that authors sometimes make mistakes, write really awful things, and regret it. But we have been waiting over a decade for a canonical misogynist, attempted murderer, and abuser to be sent to Kitty Hell, and it still has not happened.
I know that many people think Ashfur is, or is helping, the possessor of Bramblestar. I also strongly suspect that the arc will end with Ashfur in the Dark Forest. But for me, it is too little, too late. Even as recently as Squirrelflight's Hope, StarClan cats (including HOLLYLEAF) have been making excuses for him. Because 'he's sorry'. 'I'm sorry' is what you say when you accidentally hurt someone's feelings. It's not what you say after you attempt to burn your ex-girlfriend alive. Or rather, it is what you say, in addition to a whole lot of other things as you attempt to make things right. If Ashfur ends up in the Dark Forest by the end of this arc, great. I respect that the Erins are trying to make things right. But like I said before: it is too little, too late for me. A decade worth of little girls have read that their abuser will be forgiven a week after trying to burn them alive, and a decade worth of little boys have read that they will be forgiven a week after trying to burn their ex-girlfriend alive.
I have no doubt the Erins are good people who simply wanted to write about cats and made some mistakes. Some of the social commentary they have attempted to make is really, really good: having Bluestar as representation of women having to choose between their family and their job? Genius. I love that. I wish the Erins ABSOLUTELY no ill will whatsoever. I hope they have happy, long lives.
But for me, Warriors has been too many bad decisions that have sent out too many bad messages that have happened too many times. This isn't about separating the artist from the art, like with Rowling and her recent tweet. In this case, the dangerous messages are within the art.
I'll always look back on Warriors with fondness for being such a big part of my childhood. But I cannot, in all good faith, continue to support it now.
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Post by Hawkflower on Dec 22, 2019 16:56:39 GMT -5
I want to start this off by saying I respect all your opinions and what led you to believe them, but I feel a bit differently about the series. I agree with you on your point of how the series can affect some children in ways that are not good, but I never had any ill thoughts after reading Warriors as a child, and now as I continue as an adult. I admit that I don’t think about children reading this series as I’m an adult now and I haven’t read any children’s books in years, so I don’t know how they compare to the content of others. I know some bookstores or libraries may characterize Warriors as tween fiction, but that doesn’t help that it’s a children’s series in others. I feel like Warriors touches upon lots of subjects that happen in real life. With Bramblestar and Squirrelflight, it shows that no relationship is perfect (although I agree that theirs is more problematic than an average relationship should be) but this does not discount that many people do have problems, and will live with them because they love that other person. For underage relationships, I choose to see the timeline differently since cats age differently than humans. I know a lot of people compare apprenticeship to a teenage human, which I haven’t fully formed my own opinion on as yet. I don’t want to comment too much on Spottedleaf’s Heart since I read that a while ago and my memory is terrible, and while I remember the situation being unhealthy, I don’t recall having any strong negative reactions towards the novella that this community seems to share. As for Ashfur, I always saw him as the bad guy. But I completely understand your distaste since it affected you so much. I always viewed the way he was forgiven as a show of good heart, and for example, Hollyleaf not ruining herself with hatred for Ashfur. I love Warriors because it shows the complexities of life in a very valid way, and ones that I connect very strongly with. And maybe it shouldn’t be a children’s series because like you said, some can form an opinion not intended and let that mold their view. Anyways, I just wanted to share my own opinion.  |
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Post by Skypaw13 on Dec 22, 2019 17:51:07 GMT -5
Your points are well thought out, but I do disagree with this Ashfur business.
Even as a little girl, I never understood how people liked Ashfur. I liked him as a villian, I thought he was a good villian, but even at age 8, I was able to tell you that Ashfur was bad. He abused Lionpaw, conspired with an enemy warrior, tried to kill his leader, his ex, and her children, and was eventually killed for it. Within the series, he's not forgiven; ThunderClan doesn't know about his crimes and Squirrel's kits are either still angry with him or have bigger things to worry about, like finding their birth parents. We don't find out that he's in StarClan until OotS, and Jayfeather (the cat that readers will be identifying with) reacts with disgust and horror. It's wrong that he's in StarClan. Why is he here? This is a bigger problem with StarClan as a whole; they let in terrible cats as long as they don't hate StarClan (Rainflower's there too). Jayfeather doesn't forgive Ashfur until the Forgotten Warrior, and even then, he's wary. Hollyleaf's had moons to reflect and probably doesn't want to give any more of her time to him. Lionblaze is... not really present for discussion. I think a lot of people are taking that line from Yellowfang ("His only crime was to love too much") to mean that the books are pushing that he's really a good guy, despite pretty much every time Ashfur appears post-Eclipse being treated as bad. Perhaps, Yellowfang is just crazy. It's one line and one character being put up against multiple other characters' opinions.
I do feel like authors should be responsible for their messages, but only up to a point, because you can read any message into anything. There's a lot of unintentional messages, intentional but missed messages, absence of important ones, presence of minor ones, everything. It's a series with nigh on 100 books. Of course there was going to be a Spottedleaf's Heart where fans were appropriately outraged. Warriors has bad, unintentional messages, yes (like, for instance, anyone with a disability should be cast aside because they just can't hack it in a "normal" job), but they also have many, many good messages. Your family doesn't define you; unity is important; problems should be solved by talking, but you should be strong enough to defend yourself if necessary. And there are events left to interpretation. I saw Ashfur as obviously bad; you didn't. I don't think that's stemming from the books wanting it to be controversial though. I think that's stemming from a larger issue where StarClan is portrayed as cat Heaven, when it's significantly different in a lot of ways, chief among them being that bad cats are let in.
This was a long post, you really made me think about things, which I thank you for. I do respect your opinions, I just wanted to offer a counterpoint.
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Post by sylveon on Dec 22, 2019 19:01:03 GMT -5
I appreciate these types of posts and I especially appreciate the fact that everyone is having mature conversation instead of ripping each other apart as is normal nowadays. I do however want to touch on some of my thoughts because I do think this is an important topic we discuss.
I personally think that we have started to underestimate children and what they are capable of understanding, as well as the power of separating fiction from reality. This has become a problem recently as we are quick to demand perfection in every bit of media we consume to the point that even villains cannot have things that make them villainous. The vast majority of us started out reading this series as children, the first time I picked up Eclipse I was about 9-10 years old. I was confused by things like ghosts talking to Lionpaw and Jaypaw being blind yet navigating the world, but I understood with absolute clarity that Ashfur wanting to murder Squirrelflight's children was wrong. Hell, I even went through a phase where I was super emo and heart broken and "related" to Ashfur but I STILL knew none of his actions were justified. Not once in my child brain while reading the series did I think or get the idea that murdering family out of revenge was a perfectly valid thing to do.
Dustpelt and Ferncloud's relationship never struck me as odd either, we put a mature view on it now as adults and take the innocence away. Even now, the timeline is so poorly written Dustpelt still feels like he's maybe 12 months while Ferncloud is around 9 and it's more of a issue of being super close in age but not in rank. Spotted/Thistle is a complete other example and i DO agree that it needs rewriting, but a kid still may not see this relationship sexually or apply it to real life relationships.
I've kind of lost my train of thought, but over all, while i agree with OP I also don't, and I feel like we need to remember kids arent dumb
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Post by Card against Humanity on Dec 22, 2019 20:03:53 GMT -5
i dont disagree with op but i think people are starting to overestimate how much media affects kids. yes, media influences children more than we used to think, and yes, its important to be critical of the messages children are getting, but seriously kids aren't drooling sponges that take everything they see 100% at face value. when i was a kid i understood ashfur was a terrible cat without any prompting from the narrative. it reminds me of the stupid discourse over whether or not stuff like barbie or disney princesses are "feminist" enough. no 8 year old girl's self-esteem was thoroughly destroyed by an intentionally unrealistic doll, seriously
HOWEVER i dont really agree that ashfur was presented as the awful cat he is by the narrative. i don't 100% blame the erins for softening how bad he was, since back then it was pretty common for people to make excuses for guys who do terrible things over getting rejected (only now that's starting to change, but you still see people who defend murderers like elliot rodgers and that toronto van guy), but still. he went to starclan, for frick's sake. yeah, jayfeather protests it, but he's the only good guy character who seems to have any issue with ashfur being in starclan. yellowfang and hollyleaf have both made excuses for him, and it doesn't really come across to me that you aren't supposed to agree with them. it's only now that he's possibly going to be portrayed as an actual villain. idk, if you disagree that's totally fine, but i think the fact that, as op said, it was incredibly controversial to side with squirrelflight back in the day is pretty telling. i think a better example of the erins handling nice guysTM poorly is bumbelstripe though, which is a whole different discussion
also the age gap stuff makes me super uncomfortable as well lol. i don't agree regarding bramblesquirrel though, i think that relationship is supposed to be complex and not totally healthy. i just wish the erins would let squirrelflight dump him already
also also im kind of surprised by how civil this thread has been tbh. good job you guys
edit: this is unrelated and off-topic but wtc did rowling do this time?? i'd look it up but i vowed to never look at her twitter ever again months ago
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 22, 2019 21:31:18 GMT -5
The age gap stuff runs into the rather painful hurdle to cross that it is fine for apprentices to fight bloodily for their clan and sometimes even die for it, yet relationships with their elders is exploitation. If you accept the premise that apprentices aren't child soldiers then you must also accept by extension that they are able to make their own decisions about who to be with. That they are written childishly has more to do with making them relatable to the readers, but it's clear that they're meant to have agency since otherwise using them for war would be exploitative in and of itself.
Bramblestar and Squirrelflight is a terribly written relationship, but the stuff in Squirrelflight's Hope is more along the lines of "can be fixed with counseling" rather than divorce worthy in my opinion.
Ashfur was really bad though.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 23, 2019 6:42:31 GMT -5
It's almost 7am, so I'm sorry in advance for any typos. 1. Spottedleaf and Thistleclaw weren't in a relationship while Spottedleaf was an apprentice. And honestly, I don't know why this keeps popping up as such. Spottedleaf was written with the Precocious Crush trope, where a younger character has a crush on an older party. Having crushes on someone doesn't have to mean notions of something romantic, or further, than that, it just means Spottedleaf liked Thistleclaw a lot and probably was infatuated by him. There are other cases of Precocious Crushes in the series, like the YellowRaggedFox love triangle, and even StormBrambleSquirrel, etc. We even get several books of Tiger and Dove pursuing a relationship while Dovewing is still an apprentice. Apprentices are also old enough to have kits and even be in relationships, the only reason they're not is because it would get in the way of their training. Which makes sense, how can a cat train to be a warrior or viable to their clan if they're too busy focusing on romance, or expecting kits. A good example would be one of the current POV members, Rootpaw. A lot of his clanmates think that his strange behavior is because of a crush on Bristlefrost, which is distracting him from his training and duties. In a sense, this rule is similar to how Medicine cats can't have kits, because of distractions and it takes away from their time they could be used to better the clan. As Vect said, apprentices are old enough to fight and die for their clan, they're also old enough to choose who they want to be with relationship-wise. They're just not allowed to be with said cats until they've finished their education. 2. I'm confused. You understand the nature of their relationship, but you're putting the blame on Bramblestar completely. Especially considering Squirrelflight was also subsequently doubting, judging, undermining, and belittling her husband's choices. She went behind his back, lied to him, and pressured him about kits when he clearly wasn't comfortable with it, nor wanting to focus on that subject. I feel like the fandom, in general, seems to side with Squirrelflight only because she's a she-cat and in a lower level of power, but sees Bramblestar as some sort of monster for being rightfully upset or angry at some of her actions. That's my personal take on it, however, and that's coming from someone who loves Squirrelflight and doesn't care for Bramble, nor strongly ships the two. I don't think divorce was on the table either, if anything it's more like them having issues and trying to fix it, instead of just breaking up and throwing away all their progress together. I think that's the better choice, in seeing if they can work things out and if not then discuss other ways to go about it in the future. Between SFH and the TBC series, it's very obvious their relationship had improved until the obvious plot antagonist intervened. If anything I think the events of SFH was just build-up to other events of TBC, to show just how much Bramble and Squirrel are willing to go for each other and their family. I don't think Bramble and Squirrel's relationship is toxic as most think, it's just written in a more realistic light, where nothing is always perfect, or nothing is downright horrible. They just argue sometimes, and then have to work on bettering themselves to fix it or decide otherwise on good terms hopefully. If people wanted to see an actual toxic and unhealthy relationship with eventual break-ups, there are plenty of those examples in the series already. More than enough. 3. If that's how you felt about Ashfur, then that is your own perception of him as a character. The blame doesn't fall on the Erins. Everyone processes and perceives things differently. I used to love Ashfur as a character, I still do, and I still love him as a villain to this day. After re-reading the series, my opinion of him hasn't changed much, because that is how I perceived him personally in my mind. I thought he had a lot of potential growing up, I liked how he slowly went downhill and I thoroughly enjoyed how he was written as a villain. It made reading about him entertaining and that is the point of these books. For entertainment. No matter how you read something, you alone will always see something a certain way that others may not comprehend, because it's as unique as a fingerprint, even if you think you share similar interests with others. The Erins wrote the story, but again, how you perceive it, how you digest it, and how you think into it, is up to you, that is the point of reading. The books are for entertainment, and reading is for extending your imagination, to get you to think. You can change your opinion on character and relationships as time goes by, that is perfectly normal, perfectly valid, and perfectly okay. This happens all the time, nothing is stopping that from happening. I personally used to love Crowfeather as a character, so much so I actually liked him over the other characters in TNP, however, my opinion of him changed over the years. And now he's one of my least favorite characters, who I loathe, and can't stand reading about. I also used to absolutely hate Nightcloud, but after re-reading the series, I've changed my opinion on her significantly, an enjoy her a lot, she's now currently one of my favorite characters in WindClan. Also, for all we know, Ashfur going to StarClan could have also been build-up for TBC, if he does turn out to be the possessor after all. And personally, I think there are much worse cats that are morally messed up that got into StarClan than Ashfur, but they're never labeled as villains. Really, the bar is so low. And I'm going to speak as someone who is an abuse survivor who grew up with these books: Again, if the books aren't for you, you don't have to support them. Just stop reading them, erase it from your mind, avoid it if it makes you that uncomfortable. I personally don't see much of a big deal with the majority of the series, following it from when I was a child, to now, over 15 years. I've personally enjoyed it and saw it as a saving grace when it comes to the broad selection of reading back in my childhood. I know this isn't the same case for everyone, but this is just another form of media, and how you consume it. I mean there are much much worse themes in things that are supposed to be seen as morally just, or good in the eyes of others, especially things like religion, practices, etc. I feel like, in comparison, a series about talking cats with their own political system and beliefs don't even come close to controversial. And I guess it's because I grew up in a time where everyone just "read and enjoyed what they want" to "you can't consume this media is horrible for you" and purity culture and such. Which is why to me it really isn't such a big deal personally.
Yes, I disagree with some of the events, characters, or scenes in the series now and then, but I wouldn't go as far as to say I no longer want to read the series or try to convince others the same. Nor will I condemn the Erins for writing such a story, because at the end of the day this is their story, not ours, and we choose to consume it or not. And how we perceive it is up to us too. |
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Post by quailberry on Dec 23, 2019 13:22:59 GMT -5
I'm replying to multiple people at once via one big post, because lots of people seem to be saying the same thing. I originally wrote this in a response to Maplefrost, but I think it can apply to everyone, so take it as a 'send to all'
So I can 100% see why you all have a different opinion and I can completely respect that. The only thing I'm going to outright disagree with is Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw; I think it's clear, to me at least, that Thistleclaw was very clearly preying on Spottedpaw.
“I think a very great deal of you, Spottedpaw. Wherever I am, in my nest, in the forest, patrolling the borders . . . you are always beside me.” This wasn’t like a warrior talking to an apprentice about her ambitions; this was completely different. Thistleclaw was talking to her as if she was his equal. And she felt different, too. Am I falling in love? “What about you?” Thistleclaw prompted softly. “Do you think about me too?” Spottedpaw nodded. “Yes,” she whispered. “But you’re a warrior, and I’m only an apprentice. . . .” “You won’t be an apprentice forever! I’ve watched you train, and I know you’ll pass your assessment with no trouble at all.” Thistleclaw straightened up. “There is no harm in thinking about the future. Our future...Look around you. You believe in StarClan, don’t you? We are surrounded by omens that tell us we should be together. We’re meant to be a pair, Spottedpaw. StarClan says so.” “I want to be with you.”
Thistleclaw’s amber eyes burned into hers. “Prove it,” he whispered.
I know that discussions of...this nature are banned on this forum, for good reason, so I'm not going to delve into it but I think that when Thistleclaw says these things, we should absolutely trust that he means what he says, and that he therefore has very bad intentions.
I haven't re-read OOTS in a while and I've never been interested in Tigerheart and Dovewing, so I can't remember the warrior/apprentice age gap you're referring to. If it's a situation where they are only a few moons apart, were therefore apprentices at the same time for a degree of time and Tigerheart simply became a warrior a couple of months before, I think that's fine-that's the equivalent of someone turning 18 and still having a 17 year old partner. But that isn't the case with any of the other 'couples' I mentioned.
The argument of "an apprentice is old enough to have kits so it must be okay" doesn't really stand for me either, as again, it can be applied to real life. Being old enough to have kits does not automatically make it ethical to do so. Apprentices are very much treated as children, essentially teenagers, in the books. They are expected to train, and join in with fights if necessary, but it is still the responsibility of the warriors to protect the apprentices in the Clan, for the simple reason that they are still young. I'm not going to get into the "but they fight and die for their Clan" argument because that's the entire basis of the series. Clan life, as much as I find it fascinating, is very flawed, very dangerous, and very unethical and immoral.
This post (https://everybody-loves-purdy.tumblr.com/post/187444889625/regarding-bramblestars-behaviour-in) sums up Bramblestar and Squirrelflight better than I could, but at the end of the day, as someone else said, it is complex and so I can understand if you disagree. I also agree with you that Squirrelflight also made bad choices; I actually sided with, and still think, Bramblestar's ideas were better. But I hated the way he reacted to Squirrelflight's disagreement.
My point is that it wasn't just me thinking this. Ashfur apologism was everywhere when I first started reading the series-and if you have a large majority of a children's fanbase parroting that a male abuser deserves to be forgiven and find Heaven and that it's his ex's fault he tried to murder her, then somewhere along the line, the message you were trying to send has failed. If half a class of kids walk out of a Science class firmly believing that gravity is a chemical, then that's not the fault of the kids-somewhere, the adult teacher has messed up. They didn't mean to, but somewhere along the line, the children misunderstood what they were saying, and therefore it's the responsibility of the adult to fix how they teach the subject.
Like I said in my post, I always knew Ashfur was a villain. My issue is that 'but...' at the end of the sentence. I don't think this is about purity culture, nor do I intend to make it so: I love complex characters who make bad decisions, even ones who are genuinely evil, as long as they are shown in that light. Sending Ashfur to StarClan where everyone in the afterlife forgives him sends the message that burning your ex alive is forgivable. Not okay, but forgivable.
A good example of the perceptions you talk about is Hollyleaf. I, personally, detest Hollyleaf and think she was abusive and should never in a million years be given any degree of responsibility over a group setting, because she cannot overlook her personal predujices. Lots of other people love Hollyleaf. I don't understand why, but that's okay! That is why Hollyleaf is a really good example of reader perception-because she faced the consequences for what she did. She left for an entire series to wallow in guilt, and came back apologetic and determined to make things right by her family. Ashfur didn't; he gets sent to Kitty Heaven where everything is perfect forever. And he never apologizes to anyone's face.
I feel like we're getting at the same idea via different routes. You say that readers have the right to perceive everything and it isn't the author's fault what they come away with. I'm saying that readers have the right to perceive everything, but that with a book for children, an author has the responsibility to try their best to ensure the child does not walk away perceiving something dangerous-such as, it's okay for Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw to fall in love.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 23, 2019 16:49:17 GMT -5
I'm going to respectfully disagree. I have a rebuttal, but you can choose not to read it if you wish. It's up to you. Thistleclaw is and always has been manipulative. However, it's clear as day he wasn't romantically interested in Spottedleaf. He was using her crush on him to his advantage and wanted to get her to his side. This is why he takes her to the Dark Forest and tries to assimilate her. He manipulates her, but not in the manner of predatory as you're stating, at least to me that's how I see it. The way he treats Spottedleaf is really no different than how he manipulated Ivypool, the only difference is that Spotted had a crush on him, Ivypool did not.
On top of that, when she says that she's an apprentice and he's a warrior, again this can go right back to my point. It's not the age that's the issue, it's the status. Apprentices are not allowed to have mates simply because it interferes with training and education, not because they're not old enough. They are old enough, they're just not allowed. This is why DotC had such a gray-area, as some considered. Because despite cats being more than old enough, the narrative still referred to them as kits, because the apprentice system was not a thing yet.
Your logic states that apprentices are teens/children, and should be treated as such, if that's the case then the logic would still apply to any romances where one party was still an apprentice while the other was a warrior or became a warrior. Imo that logic is a bit flawed because the apprentice system is flawed, and isn't supposed to be viewed as a means of telling who is what age compared to human years. Especially considering that cats reach maturity and adulthood obviously much faster than humans ever would. It's not a good comparison from the start, and the only thing similar between the Warrior cats and humans is their political systems, religious beliefs and speaking. Things like age, and nature of relationships are much different.
Also, to put it in perspective, Tigerheart was already a warrior by/before the first book, TFA, this is when Dovewing starts out her apprenticeship. She and Tigerheart begin seeing each other before she's even a warrior, and she doesn't earn her name until four books later SotM. Her clan wouldn't have approved of the fact that she was seeing a tom in secret during her training, but also because he's from another clan.
Why is it taboo for kits under six moons to be apprenticed? Because it's the equivalent of child soldiers. If we're still comparing this to real life, the age requirement to join and train with military status is 18. 17 is possible with parental permission. If anything apprentices are the gray area of ages 17 to 21 irl. Also, another thing to take into consideration, military personnel aren't allowed to date or marry one another, there are some exceptions, but especially during training, this isn't allowed. It's quite obvious to me at least, that the clans are based on or military-political systems. Apprentices are "newbie" military soldiers who are enlisting and about to go through training. It's just like how medicine cat apprentices are literally training to be doctors, to save lives.
Cats are adults after six months, apprentices are six moons old, apprentices are consenting adults that start military training. Cats also usually reach adult size after a year, and most apprenticeships last for another 6 moons, after 1 year a warrior would be full-sized. However, with humans, they usually don't grow much after reaching adulthood.
I think the only reason some would perceive apprentices as "children" is because of the maturity gap, not the age gap. Apprentices again are "newbie soldiers" they lack the maturity that the ones training them already have. This is something they continue to grow into. When you're an adult, it doesn't =/= already matured/stop growing mentally. Hence why in many media old/elderly characters are seen as very "wise". Apprentices are supposed to relate to the reader because there's a time of immaturity, you can be immature no matter what age you are. Or at least understand the sense of immaturity coming from these characters as they developed into trained soldiers for their clan.
However you can perceive this how you like, it's up to you. As for the BrambleSquirrel article, you linked... The Gaslighting: Squirrelflight was wrong.
-She disobeyed and went behind Bramblestar's back, that was disloyal.
-Her judgment got both her and Leafstar taken hostage and later a fight sparked between the opposing parties.
-The sisters have different morals than the clans, so it makes sense for Bramble, and other cats to think that they are bad. At least TC and Sky personally, the other clans have no excuse *cough*TigerTwo*cough*. They held Squirrel and Leaf hostages for a few days, and even attacked Leafstar, of course, Bramble wouldn't take that whole notion with open arms.
Control Tactic: If anything this is as close to a punishment that she got.
Bramblestar put too much faith in her in the first place, and honestly, if he didn't make new rules or anything at all, I would have found that more questioning. He IS her leader, she IS his deputy. What she did was undermining, and honestly her behavior was something that a newbie apprentice soldier would do. It was utterly embarrassing. She shouldn't have gotten away with it just because they were mates. A deputy checking a leader for permission first about decision honestly seems logical, the only difference is that before Bramble didn't have to do this, because he trusted her enough with that responsibility. In every other case, outside of clans, you can see prime examples of warriors checking with their leader's word first. Heck even SkyClan did this when Squirrelflight snuck out to see Leafstar, and even they called her out for going against Bramblestar. Him not allowing her to speak, after the embarrassment of a situation she put them through, honestly is too light of a punishment.
Silent Treatment: Bramblestar has a right to be angry.
He only talks to Squirrelflight when he has to when it has to do with their business concerning the clan an the clan duties. However, when it comes to personal things, he has a right to be angry with how Squirrelflight behaved. If Squirrel is allowed to only think about kits and herself throughout the book, I don't see why Bramble isn't allowed to be rightfully angry about her betraying his trust? Also, the author admittedly talks about relating the situation to their own personal situations, and I think the tone of bias is quite obvious.
Effect on Squirrelflight: She was literally already questioning this stuff, way out of proportions before she disobeyed.
She was thinking that she'd die before Bramble, and he'd just replace her and move on, then forget her. Which is why she kept talking and thinking about kits so much. She was projecting all these feelings onto him, and already doubting her own thoughts because of it. She should have thought twice honestly before acting the way she did, and just because it "works out in the end" doesn't excuse what she did. Honestly, it boggles my mind how far people are going to paint her as innocent in all of this while pretty much making Bramble out to be an abusive monster. When in reality she's just disappointed in her actions as a leader and feels betrayed by her as a mate.
Conflict resolution: Yes, it was both of their faults, but imo Squirrelflight caused more problems in the long run. Again, this just shows people trying to make her out to be completely innocent in this whole situation, which still boggles me.
The author also claims Bramble is extremely abusive...???? ???? I'm sorry, but not even close. An actual extremely abusive relationship would be Raggedstar and Yellowfang, and I don't think BrambleSquirrel even comes close to how grossly manipulative and unhealthy that relationship was. Even then, there are still plenty of other unhealthy pairings that fit this mold the author is trying to create.
Also, let's be real, this is on tumblr, I hardly take anything said on this site even half-seriously. But it proves my point, just how grossly exaggerated fans are about this book, and how utterly annoying Squirrelflight stans are. An again, this is coming from someone that actually loves Squirrelflight, and doesn't care for Bramble, and I even prefer her with Stormfur. At this point, the fandom is just making Bramble their new scratching post. Lastly...when it comes to Ashfur. Again, it just comes down to perception. Ashfur is a fictional character. He is a cat. A fictional talking cat. And over time opinions change, and even now you can still get fans that still like him or dislike him in different ways. However, I still stand by the notion that purity-culture is more rampant, alongside cancel-culture, and anti-culture. It's hard not to go into any fandom and not seeing it rampant. No Ashfur isn't morally right character-wise, but if people side with him and like him, that's kinda their choice. And I don't see anything wrong with that. He's a fictional character at the end of the day.
I also think that the whole situation regarding Ashfur is still build-up to the current arc. Which would put everything else into a different perspective completely, regarding his character. But honestly, only time will tell. I think that's all that can really be said about that. |
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 23, 2019 18:38:26 GMT -5
I assure you that a series can say whatever it pleases about a character and fans will not necessarily follow it. Just look at Mapleshade, a psychotic serial killer, who is always described in terms of how evil and twisted she is in the series. All the same, the Mapleshade apologists are everywhere and still a popular presence in the fandom. Would you that this also gives a bad message just because people chose to interpret her character in the most asinine way possible?
People will believe what they want about characters, but Ashfur is very obviously portrayed as an insane monster in the PoT. The guide doubles down by following Brambleclaw’s fake story. The only example of any support is in Starclan, but in context of these scenes Starclan isn’t shown to be perfect either. In OOTS they were dividing down clan lines and actively sabotaging the clans due to their own ineptitude and a major theme is their imperfections. In Squirrelflight’s Hope, we have the trial scene showing Starclan being grossly out of touch as well as possible foreshadowing. In short, there is context which makes it clear Starclan is not akin to an omnibenevolent God and so comparing it to Heaven is deeply flawed. Perfection is never a part of it in OOTS and SH
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Post by alphayamergo on Dec 23, 2019 19:11:16 GMT -5
I've got to say Warriors has a lot of flaws, but I agree with the others that I don't think it's as bad as you do.
Ashfur, for instance, was unequivocally a villain in POT. They stumbled in OOTS by putting him in StarClan, but in POT he was a bad person, and TBC looks like it's fixing the StarClan thing, too.
The biggest thing, arguably, is the age gap relationships. I think the big problem with most of them is that the Erins' struggles with consistent timelines, and with the retcons. But the thing is, most younger readers won't so the maths and realise how big the age gap is. Dustpelt and Ferncloud, for instance, are portrayed as having a fairly minor age gap in the narrative - I'd put it at a older teenager and young twenty-something having a crush on each other. Not perfect, but not inherently shady, either. SpottedFire is realistically also a result of the retcons, this time with the family trees. According to ITW, she was younger than most medicine cats, but according to the family trees released well after, her littermate is old enough to be deputy. SquirrelBramble and FeatherCrow have similar problems, with FQ retconning almost an extra year into the timeline that was implied in Midnight.
But most of this isn't noticeable to the younger readers, because they aren't going through and doing the maths. SH is the major problem - but as a novella, a huge portion of the readers won't be touching it anyway. Warriors is far from perfect but I don't think it'll have a large negative impact on any readers. If you want to point the finger at any book series, I have a ton of YA romances that probably have far worse impacts.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Dec 23, 2019 19:21:19 GMT -5
I've got to say Warriors has a lot of flaws, but I agree with the others that I don't think it's as bad as you do. Ashfur, for instance, was unequivocally a villain in POT. They stumbled in OOTS by putting him in StarClan, but in POT he was a bad person, and TBC looks like it's fixing the StarClan thing, too. The biggest thing, arguably, is the age gap relationships. I think the big problem with most of them is that the Erins' struggles with consistent timelines, and with the retcons. But the thing is, most younger readers won't so the maths and realise how big the age gap is. Dustpelt and Ferncloud, for instance, are portrayed as having a fairly minor age gap in the narrative - I'd put it at a older teenager and young twenty-something having a crush on each other. Not perfect, but not inherently shady, either. SpottedFire is realistically also a result of the retcons, this time with the family trees. According to ITW, she was younger than most medicine cats, but according to the family trees released well after, her littermate is old enough to be deputy. SquirrelBramble and FeatherCrow have similar problems, with FQ retconning almost an extra year into the timeline that was implied in Midnight. But most of this isn't noticeable to the younger readers, because they aren't going through and doing the maths. SH is the major problem - but as a novella, a huge portion of the readers won't be touching it anyway. Warriors is far from perfect but I don't think it'll have a large negative impact on any readers. If you want to point the finger at any book series, I have a ton of YA romances that probably have far worse impacts. that's another thing: when I was a kid i genuinely didnt see the huge age gaps in the series, because the cats ages weren't ever really brought up. i always saw the apprentice/warrior relationships as just being a 17-19 year old with someone in their early twenties. i think the erins view apprentices as older teens and dont really consider the exact ages of the warriors they're paired with. the only one that i can't see any defense for is thistlespotted, but i think that was supposed to be gross, they just didn't handle it well. overall, though, warriors definitely didn't teach me that its okay for an adolescent to be with a grown adult, because I never interpreted it that way, and I doubt most children reading the books did either. its still kind of sketchy, but imo it's not outright harmful. |
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Post by alphayamergo on Dec 23, 2019 19:43:02 GMT -5
I've got to say Warriors has a lot of flaws, but I agree with the others that I don't think it's as bad as you do. Ashfur, for instance, was unequivocally a villain in POT. They stumbled in OOTS by putting him in StarClan, but in POT he was a bad person, and TBC looks like it's fixing the StarClan thing, too. The biggest thing, arguably, is the age gap relationships. I think the big problem with most of them is that the Erins' struggles with consistent timelines, and with the retcons. But the thing is, most younger readers won't so the maths and realise how big the age gap is. Dustpelt and Ferncloud, for instance, are portrayed as having a fairly minor age gap in the narrative - I'd put it at a older teenager and young twenty-something having a crush on each other. Not perfect, but not inherently shady, either. SpottedFire is realistically also a result of the retcons, this time with the family trees. According to ITW, she was younger than most medicine cats, but according to the family trees released well after, her littermate is old enough to be deputy. SquirrelBramble and FeatherCrow have similar problems, with FQ retconning almost an extra year into the timeline that was implied in Midnight. But most of this isn't noticeable to the younger readers, because they aren't going through and doing the maths. SH is the major problem - but as a novella, a huge portion of the readers won't be touching it anyway. Warriors is far from perfect but I don't think it'll have a large negative impact on any readers. If you want to point the finger at any book series, I have a ton of YA romances that probably have far worse impacts. that's another thing: when I was a kid i genuinely didnt see the huge age gaps in the series, because the cats ages weren't ever really brought up. i always saw the apprentice/warrior relationships as just being a 17-19 year old with someone in their early twenties. i think the erins view apprentices as older teens and dont really consider the exact ages of the warriors they're paired with. the only one that i can't see any defense for is thistlespotted, but i think that was supposed to be gross, they just didn't handle it well. overall, though, warriors definitely didn't teach me that its okay for an adolescent to be with a grown adult, because I never interpreted it that way, and I doubt most children reading the books did either. its still kind of sketchy, but imo it's not outright harmful.Yeah, I think that's the thing. The narrative portrays the age gaps as being very small, and I think the Erins intend for them to be very small. It's only when you take the step back and do the maths that you realise that there's a big age gap. SH definitely could have been handled better, like so many other things (pointed stare at the handling of adoption) but SpottedThistle did end badly, even if not for the reason that we would have liked. But purely because of the way the age gaps are portrayed in-story (that is, effectively non-existent) I don't think it'll have a terrible impact on anyone reading, as compared to (to pick low-hanging fruit) Twilight or something like that. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 20:23:22 GMT -5
I've got to say Warriors has a lot of flaws, but I agree with the others that I don't think it's as bad as you do. Ashfur, for instance, was unequivocally a villain in POT. They stumbled in OOTS by putting him in StarClan, but in POT he was a bad person, and TBC looks like it's fixing the StarClan thing, too. The biggest thing, arguably, is the age gap relationships. I think the big problem with most of them is that the Erins' struggles with consistent timelines, and with the retcons. But the thing is, most younger readers won't so the maths and realise how big the age gap is. Dustpelt and Ferncloud, for instance, are portrayed as having a fairly minor age gap in the narrative - I'd put it at a older teenager and young twenty-something having a crush on each other. Not perfect, but not inherently shady, either. SpottedFire is realistically also a result of the retcons, this time with the family trees. According to ITW, she was younger than most medicine cats, but according to the family trees released well after, her littermate is old enough to be deputy. SquirrelBramble and FeatherCrow have similar problems, with FQ retconning almost an extra year into the timeline that was implied in Midnight. But most of this isn't noticeable to the younger readers, because they aren't going through and doing the maths. SH is the major problem - but as a novella, a huge portion of the readers won't be touching it anyway. Warriors is far from perfect but I don't think it'll have a large negative impact on any readers. If you want to point the finger at any book series, I have a ton of YA romances that probably have far worse impacts. You took the words out of my mouth. I was about to add my two cents about that subject matter, but you already covered really well. However, a lot of these issues can be summarized with a lack of planning on the writers' behalf.
As much as I enjoy Warriors series, my biggest grips with it as a franchise is how utterly disorganized it is. You have filler characters appearing and disappearing with very little explanation, retcons (most notably the age changes that alphayamergo addressed their post) occur on a moment's notice, previously killed off characters have lazurus like superpowers, character descriptions change on a dime, and the events of different books often greatly contradict each other, etc.. Let's not even get into the time when Victoria Holmes unwisely allowed some random fan (what was her name again?) to be her spokesperson on facebook.
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Post by Fernshiine on Dec 23, 2019 22:06:23 GMT -5
I disagree with a lot of this. I have a lot of reasons and I do admit that I am one of the most opinionated people you will ever meet. That being said, I feel like I should post my own thoughts on this and then end it off with why I still support (and always will) Warriors as a whole.
1. Age Gaps
These are cats. Cats are creatures who mature and a whole different rate than humans. That being said I wouldn't say anyone was getting "preyed on" in the series. Dustpelt liked Ferncloud for a genuine reason, as did Spottedleaf like Firepaw. Cats are creatures who will mature at six months of age fully (which is when they are made apprentices). Firepaw was well aware of the fact when he joined ThunderClan, as he knew it would be time for him to go get fixed if he stayed any longer. Spottedleaf was older than him, yes, but she fell in love with him for multiple reasons and the age gap didn't matter because it was mutual and Firepaw wasn't what I would call a child. I know people say cats are "humanized" (and I don't deny it) but these age gaps ain't much to pick on in the long run when you remind yourself of the short lifespan and swift maturation felines have compared to us humans. People have relationships with eight year age gaps and I see no issue. Dustpelt was a young adult when he fell in love with Fernpaw. It would be like someone in their early 20's crushing on a 17-19 year old in my opinion within her third moon of training. Cats and humans age differently than humans. I knew this as a kid and I was never offended or bothered by age gaps. I feel like adults are trying to nitpick on this when kids don't care about these adult problems. Kids are innocent.
2. Unhealthy Relationships
I admit that I am not the biggest fan of unhealthy relationships, specifically Bramblestar X Squirrelflight. But I don't support divorce either. Regardless, cats do break up multiple times in the series (Crowfeather X Nightcloud, Storm X Clear Sky, Rainflower X Shellheart, and so on). I think since there's no official marriage in warriors I'm stretching it, but I've heard that Harper Collins is a company run on religious values to a degree. I, myself, don't support divorce if you took your wedding vows. I can see this becoming a controversial statement but I just do. But Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw shouldn't have been together in the first place, I agree.
3. Ashfur
I believe strongly in forgiveness, as long as a person is genuinely sorry. Forgiveness is rather important. But I do think the Erins failed at one thing: the portrayal of mental illness. They never came out to say Bluestar was depressed, for example, but many fans know she was. With Ashfur it was clear he was insane but the authors never really showed the inner workings of his mind that led him to being both insane and then redeemed. If Ashfur was redeemed I believe there was a reason. Again I'd like to point out that Harper Collins has some kind of religious background and if they're like me they'd know that forgiveness is the key trait to bettering yourself as a person. That being said, they could've worked this out a bit better.
Warriors is a series that was always a safe haven for me. I felt at ease whenever I read it as a kit (and I still do now) while I was going through hard times in school. I read it for the connections, not the lessons, so I was happy they didn't make it too sun-and-rainbows and had mature themes. Sure, it's a kid's book, but anyone can read it. This book series is certainly more safe for kids than the current school system. I wish that were just a joke.
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