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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 4:12:30 GMT -5
How do you think it would of affected the story? How would certain character react? What would his afterlife be? And how would your real-life option of him change?
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Post by Lightflame on Mar 16, 2019 8:59:35 GMT -5
Then he would have been a villain.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 9:09:46 GMT -5
Graystripe would probably go mad with grief, and Feathertail would have never been able to save the Tribe. Crowfeather would gain his own personality and have never met Feathertail, but he probably would still go to Leafpool.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on Mar 16, 2019 9:33:19 GMT -5
Hmm. Well that depends heavily on Firestar and Graystripe being there to see it. Graystripe and Firestar would have immediately intervened, which meant chaos would have exploded. He would have never got the chance to do so if Firestar and Graystripe were there because they would have jumped in and honestly, I have no idea what would have happened next. I think Leopardstar's response would have changed immediately upon seeing Graystripe and Firestar; she wouldn't have allowed them to see that she was willing to let Tigerstar call the shots and order her deputy to kill two apprentices. Then you have to think about how Tigerstar would react- and the possibilities are literally endless.
The only way he could have killed them is if Graystripe and Firestar weren't there and I'm pretty sure he would have died either way. It also would be way out of character, but a wounded animal backed into a corner isn't themselves, they're acting purely on instinct out of survival. I still think he would have been killed, if not this time then the next. If he killed the apprentices his next job would be to kill his sister, and since I don't think he's capable of that (or vice versa) Tigerstar still sends in warriors to fight against them and they still die. Tigerstar is really the deciding factor here because as we saw, he never had any intention of Stonefur being able to earn his place in the clan or else he would have let him beat Darkstripe and left it at that. His goal was always to see Bluestar's son dead, so there's no real scenario where that doesn't happen unless someone else intervenes before it can.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 10:04:34 GMT -5
Hmm. Well that depends heavily on Firestar and Graystripe being there to see it. Graystripe and Firestar would have immediately intervened, which meant chaos would have exploded. He would have never got the chance to do so if Firestar and Graystripe were there because they would have jumped in and honestly, I have no idea what would have happened next. I think Leopardstar's response would have changed immediately upon seeing Graystripe and Firestar; she wouldn't have allowed them to see that she was willing to let Tigerstar call the shots and order her deputy to kill two apprentices. Then you have to think about how Tigerstar would react- and the possibilities are literally endless. The only way he could have killed them is if Graystripe and Firestar weren't there and I'm pretty sure he would have died either way. It also would be way out of character, but a wounded animal backed into a corner isn't themselves, they're acting purely on instinct out of survival. I still think he would have been killed, if not this time then the next. If he killed the apprentices his next job would be to kill his sister, and since I don't think he's capable of that (or vice versa) Tigerstar still sends in warriors to fight against them and they still die. Tigerstar is really the deciding factor here because as we saw, he never had any intention of Stonefur being able to earn his place in the clan or else he would have let him beat Darkstripe and left it at that. His goal was always to see Bluestar's son dead, so there's no real scenario where that doesn't happen unless someone else intervenes before it can. Maybe it wouldn't of been that out of character. Remember, Stonefur had no idea about Firestar and Greystripe. To his knowledge, it would of been a hopeless situation. Either 2 or 3 of them are going to die no matter what, as it would be impossible to escape with being so massively outnumbered. In the canon, when he "sacrificed" himself it was kind of pointless, since he was aware Stormpaw and Featherpaw were very likely going to be slaughtered by Tigerstar's lackeys anyway. So what's better; For Stonefur to accept all 3 of them are going to die. But try and protect them regardless, knowing it was pointless, for the sake of keeping up his mortals. Making the situation even scarier for Stormpaw and Featherpaw, as they have to watch their deputy/mentor die before their own execution. Leaving them alone to face death by the hand of terrifying strangers unconcerned about how painful it is. Or; Stonefur takes the option where 1 survives. If Stonefur kills the apprentices, he'd be more careful then any Tigerclan executor would do. Maybe even try to confront them. If someone has an inevitable death; It better to have loved one to do, who are trying to make it as quick and painless as possible. Or a stranger, who hates you and probably doesn't care how painful it is. With Stonefur alive, he could use their apprentices' sacrifices to help avenge them. He also been willing to accept punishment for their deaths, getting some sense of justice for their murders. As neither Darkstripe or Blackstar never did in the canon.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 10:32:39 GMT -5
Now that I think about, I really wish Stonefur had tried being smart about the whole situation. Instead of assuming there are only two options and blindly shouting "I'd rather die!" - Knowing full well it wouldn't of made a difference and the apprentices would be executed instantly afterwards, all 3 of them dying anyway.
If they're in a life/death situation anyway, Stonefur wouldn't have anything to lose if he tried talking his way out of it.
-Like attempting to rile up the Riverclan cats/Leopardstar on how unfair this is, causing their clanmates to fight for them and Tigerclan to split.
- Stonefur pointing out the hypocrisy of Tigerstar's Half-Clan executions. As he himself is from Thunderclan and has allowed many outsiders like Rouges and kittypets to join Tigerclan. It doesn't make much sense future-wise as well. Since Tigerstar plans to unit the Four Clans, he must be willing to allow the Four Bloodlines to inbreed together if they truly are clanmates. So Stonefur would question - What's the difference between the Half-Clan cats now, then the future Tigerclan kits of mixed heritage?
- Stonefur tries to convince Tigerstar to exile them all instead, promising they won't be a threat.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 16, 2019 10:49:20 GMT -5
Now that I think about, I really wish Stonefur had tried being smart about the whole situation. Instead of assuming there are only two options and blindly shouting "I'd rather die!" - Knowing full well it wouldn't of made a difference and the apprentices would be executed instantly afterwards, all 3 of them dying anyway. If they're in a life/death situation anyway, Stonefur wouldn't have anything to lose if he tried talking his way out of it. -Like attempting to rile up the Riverclan cats/Leopardstar on how unfair this is, causing their clanmates to fight for them and Tigerclan to split. - Stonefur pointing out the hypocrisy of Tigerstar's Half-Clan executions. As he himself is from Thunderclan and has allowed many outsiders like Rouges and kittypets to join Tigerclan. It doesn't make much sense future-wise as well. Since Tigerstar plans to unit the Four Clans, he must be willing to allow the Four Bloodlines to inbreed together if they truly are clanmates. So Stonefur would question - What's the difference between the Half-Clan cats now, then the future Tigerclan kits of mixed heritage? - Stonefur tries to convince Tigerstar to exile them all instead, promising they won't be a threat. 1. Stonefur tried. He talks about how he has been loyal all of his life and there's no proof of any disloyalty. Tigerstar then twists that statement into making him prove his loyalty by killing the apprentices. If he'd tried to go further, Tigerstar could have just sent out Blackfoot more quickly to silence him. The whole thing was just a show, Tigerstar never had any need to actually indulge in having the trial in public. 2. Logical fallacies don't matter. Tigerstar could just wave his paw and say they will be "honorary pure bloods" or something asinine like that. Trying to reason with the unreasonable simply doesn't work and with a horde of fanatics like the one Tigerstar commanded, they wouldn't have cared either. And as for Riverclan, they had no leader because Leopardstar had rolled over and Stonefur was imprisoned and starved. 3. Why bother? He knows full well that Tigerstar won't let him live.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 11:00:05 GMT -5
Now that I think about, I really wish Stonefur had tried being smart about the whole situation. Instead of assuming there are only two options and blindly shouting "I'd rather die!" - Knowing full well it wouldn't of made a difference and the apprentices would be executed instantly afterwards, all 3 of them dying anyway. If they're in a life/death situation anyway, Stonefur wouldn't have anything to lose if he tried talking his way out of it. -Like attempting to rile up the Riverclan cats/Leopardstar on how unfair this is, causing their clanmates to fight for them and Tigerclan to split. - Stonefur pointing out the hypocrisy of Tigerstar's Half-Clan executions. As he himself is from Thunderclan and has allowed many outsiders like Rouges and kittypets to join Tigerclan. It doesn't make much sense future-wise as well. Since Tigerstar plans to unit the Four Clans, he must be willing to allow the Four Bloodlines to inbreed together if they truly are clanmates. So Stonefur would question - What's the difference between the Half-Clan cats now, then the future Tigerclan kits of mixed heritage? - Stonefur tries to convince Tigerstar to exile them all instead, promising they won't be a threat. 1. Stonefur tried. He talks about how he has been loyal all of his life and there's no proof of any disloyalty. Tigerstar then twists that statement into making him prove his loyalty by killing the apprentices. If he'd tried to go further, Tigerstar could have just sent out Blackfoot more quickly to silence him. The whole thing was just a show, Tigerstar never had any need to actually indulge in having the trial in public. 2. Logical fallacies don't matter. Tigerstar could just wave his paw and say they will be "honorary pure bloods" or something asinine like that. Trying to reason with the unreasonable simply doesn't work and with a horde of fanatics like the one Tigerstar commanded, they wouldn't have cared either. And as for Riverclan, they had no leader because Leopardstar had rolled over and Stonefur was imprisoned and starved. 3. Why bother? He knows full well that Tigerstar won't let him live. <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="13.419999999999959" style="position: absolute; width: 19.120000000000005px; height: 13.419999999999959px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_65668460" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="13.419999999999959" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 13.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_31882516" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="13.419999999999959" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 13.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 602px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_44377774" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="13.419999999999959" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 13.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 602px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_35342794" scrolling="no"></iframe> Well considering Stonefur never tried any of those in the books, we can't say for sure the exact reaction. But at least he could of tried. However, instead of just getting himself into an impossible fight, didn't really help.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 16, 2019 11:04:13 GMT -5
On the subject of the OP, if Stonefur was forced to kill them and Firestar and Graystripe were unable to rescue them(and assuming Graystripe doesn't just go ballistic and launch himself forward to kill Stonefur on the spot) then I think that we'd look upon him as someone very, very desperate. People would probably hate Leopardstar far more since in the end it was her command that sealed the deal. I think an interesting take on it is Stonefur killing them as quickly and painlessly as possible to spare them the suffering. If he does it like that, then I think he'd still be viewed as a hero for wanting to end their misery on better terms than whatever horrid death Tigerstar envisioned(and would likely dole onto him anyway). I would like to think that Stonefur still goes to Starclan but is horrifically guilt ridden by what he did and asks himself if there wasn't another way.
As far as affecting the story, the problem is really that Graystripe would have never let him do that so it'd require Graystripe being different as well. Assuming it does happen though, then I assume they just head back home defeated and upset. Mudclaw still rushes over to tell them about Tigerstar attacking and so Lionclan still forms and the events of the Darkest Hour mostly go the same way save for Leopardstar having a different deputy chosen since Mistyfoot almost certainly dies in the process of this. TNP doesn't change much aside from having a different Riverclan representative. We can skip the Tribe entirely since we see in AVOS that you don't need to take the mountain route to get to the lake and the other path is far less treacherous. Once there, the rest of the story goes about the same.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on Mar 16, 2019 11:21:57 GMT -5
@mellowix Him killing the apprentices would be out of character because he's not selfish enough or violent that he would do something like that, but I also mentioned that the scenario in which he would he would be in the same spirit as a wounded animal backed into a corner, acting purely out of a need to survive. Dangerous and unpredictable, doing whatever is needed. Him attempting to kill the apprentices has nothing to do with Firestar and Graystripe being there, but them being there has everything to do with him succeeding. They won't sit idly by while he does it and the apprentices won't just not fight back so the second Firestar and Graystripe show themselves to protect his kits Tigerstar's focus will shift to them, which is why they can't be there.
Stonefur didn't know that his sacrifice would be in vain nor did he know that after he refused to kill the apprentices, he would be tasked to fight Darkstripe and then jumped by Blackfoot. He refused because he's not the cat who would sacrifice someone else to save his own skin, especially not two apprentices. Him refusing to kill them had more to do with his heart and less to do with him thinking practically and objectively, in the way that Firestar and Graystripe would have jumped in and saved them if they had been attacked regardless of it being a suicide mission and the likelihood he would even succeed being slim to none.
Also there is no such thing as a careful death in this scenario. He doesn't have deathberries to feed them and they will fight back, which means he will have to fight them to kill them. They're not going to lay down as he rips their throats open and being killed by someone you know and care about and expected to protect you is way worse than being killed by some stranger. He was ordered to fight and kill them in the same fashion Darkstripe and Blackfoot did; there's no way to be gentle or merciful about it.
As far as getting justice for their murders, I don't know that it would even get that far. In canon of course there was no justice for Stonefur's murder because Darkstripe and Tigerstar were both dead and there really isn't a punishment for killing an enemy cat when it's authorized by your clan leader and theirs, however wrong it is. Tigerstar made it clear that his end goal for the half clan cats was their death when he sent in Blackfoot to finish off Stonefur because he was winning, and Tigerstar has all the power. even if he did kill the apprentices he would've just been killed at a later time. The only reason he wanted him to kill the apprentices was because it would have hurt them more to have someone they love and trust turn on them and kill them for his own survival.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on Mar 16, 2019 11:32:13 GMT -5
But let's say Tigerstar orders the kill, Firestar and Graystripe aren't there so Stonefur succeeds in killing them. His next task would have been to kill Mistyfoot since there's no one left for her to kill to prove her loyalty but Tigerstar dies before he can set up the death match. It won't change much in the overall sotryline but I do think Stonefur would want to step down as deputy, either out of disgust for his actions or out of disgust of Leopardstar's. I can't see him willingly continuing to be her deputy after that, and really I didn't get why Mistyfoot was willing to be her deputy so soon after his death, though perhaps if she'd been there to witness it herself she might not have been so quick to forget.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 16, 2019 11:32:58 GMT -5
@mellowix Him killing the apprentices would be out of character because he's not selfish enough or violent that he would do something like that, but I also mentioned that the scenario in which he would he would be in the same spirit as a wounded animal backed into a corner, acting purely out of a need to survive. Dangerous and unpredictable, doing whatever is needed. Him attempting to kill the apprentices has nothing to do with Firestar and Graystripe being there, but them being there has everything to do with him succeeding. They won't sit idly by while he does it and the apprentices won't just not fight back so the second Firestar and Graystripe show themselves to protect his kits Tigerstar's focus will shift to them, which is why they can't be there. Stonefur didn't know that his sacrifice would be in vain nor did he know that after he refused to kill the apprentices, he would be tasked to fight Darkstripe and then jumped by Blackfoot. He refused because he's not the cat who would sacrifice someone else to save his own skin, especially not two apprentices. Him refusing to kill them had more to do with his heart and less to do with him thinking practically and objectively, in the way that Firestar and Graystripe would have jumped in and saved them if they had been attacked regardless of it being a suicide mission and the likelihood he would even succeed being slim to none. Also there is no such thing as a careful death in this scenario. He doesn't have deathberries to feed them and they will fight back, which means he will have to fight them to kill them. They're not going to lay down as he rips their throats open and being killed by someone you know and care about and expected to protect you is way worse than being killed by some stranger. He was ordered to fight and kill them in the same fashion Darkstripe and Blackfoot did; there's no way to be gentle or merciful about it. As far as getting justice for their murders, I don't know that it would even get that far. In canon of course there was no justice for Stonefur's murder because Darkstripe and Tigerstar were both dead and there really isn't a punishment for killing an enemy cat when it's authorized by your clan leader and theirs, however wrong it is. Tigerstar made it clear that his end goal for the half clan cats was their death when he sent in Blackfoot to finish off Stonefur because he was winning, and Tigerstar has all the power. even if he did kill the apprentices he would've just been killed at a later time. The only reason he wanted him to kill the apprentices was because it would have hurt them more to have someone they love and trust turn on them and kill them for his own survival. They are much smaller than he is and as per Warriors, it is very easy to break the neck of a smaller cat if one puts enough oomph into it. Breaking their necks would be downright careful and swift compared to possibly being starved to death as Tigerstar would apparently be scheming in Stonefur's eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 11:55:36 GMT -5
@mellowix Him killing the apprentices would be out of character because he's not selfish enough or violent that he would do something like that, but I also mentioned that the scenario in which he would he would be in the same spirit as a wounded animal backed into a corner, acting purely out of a need to survive. Dangerous and unpredictable, doing whatever is needed. Him attempting to kill the apprentices has nothing to do with Firestar and Graystripe being there, but them being there has everything to do with him succeeding. They won't sit idly by while he does it and the apprentices won't just not fight back so the second Firestar and Graystripe show themselves to protect his kits Tigerstar's focus will shift to them, which is why they can't be there. Stonefur didn't know that his sacrifice would be in vain nor did he know that after he refused to kill the apprentices, he would be tasked to fight Darkstripe and then jumped by Blackfoot. He refused because he's not the cat who would sacrifice someone else to save his own skin, especially not two apprentices. Him refusing to kill them had more to do with his heart and less to do with him thinking practically and objectively, in the way that Firestar and Graystripe would have jumped in and saved them if they had been attacked regardless of it being a suicide mission and the likelihood he would even succeed being slim to none. Also there is no such thing as a careful death in this scenario. He doesn't have deathberries to feed them and they will fight back, which means he will have to fight them to kill them. They're not going to lay down as he rips their throats open and being killed by someone you know and care about and expected to protect you is way worse than being killed by some stranger. He was ordered to fight and kill them in the same fashion Darkstripe and Blackfoot did; there's no way to be gentle or merciful about it. As far as getting justice for their murders, I don't know that it would even get that far. In canon of course there was no justice for Stonefur's murder because Darkstripe and Tigerstar were both dead and there really isn't a punishment for killing an enemy cat when it's authorized by your clan leader and theirs, however wrong it is. Tigerstar made it clear that his end goal for the half clan cats was their death when he sent in Blackfoot to finish off Stonefur because he was winning, and Tigerstar has all the power. even if he did kill the apprentices he would've just been killed at a later time. The only reason he wanted him to kill the apprentices was because it would have hurt them more to have someone they love and trust turn on them and kill them for his own survival. They are much smaller than he is and as per Warriors, it is very easy to break the neck of a smaller cat if one puts enough oomph into it. Breaking their necks would be downright careful and swift compared to possibly being starved to death as Tigerstar would apparently be scheming in Stonefur's eyes. Also, the apprentices are starved-prisoners waiting for execution. Since they don't know Thunderclan was even aware of their imprisonment. They may have already lost the will to fight anymore. The only question by that point was, how would they make their inescapable death the least painful as possible. If Stonefur managed to speak to the apprentices, maybe they would of listened to him instead of trying to fight him. Especially since Feathertail has a more passive personality and was willing to sacrifice herself for Stormfur and Crowpaw. Even Stormpaw, the more aggressive, still isn't that stubborn/fighter. Like when he took into the Tribe's guilt-tripping to kill Sharptooth and sacrifice himself for it.
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