#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 14, 2019 15:25:40 GMT -5
Do you think it was well-written?
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 14, 2019 15:28:38 GMT -5
Calling it well-written implies there was one to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 15:36:42 GMT -5
I think so. Better than the recent so-called "redemptions" we've been getting from Needletail and Breezepelt, anyways. Not sure why some people think Hollyleaf hasn't been redeemed though, even though she felt remorse and worked so hard, but to each their own.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 15:39:47 GMT -5
Calling it well-written implies there was one to begin with. There wasn't one for you?
|
|
Pixie
credit to poleyworld and pixelart
|
Post by Pixie on Mar 14, 2019 15:40:08 GMT -5
Yes.
Hollyleaf was away from ThunderClan for a while and during that time she had a great deal of reflection. Her anger faded away and turned into regret. She had hurt a lot of cats because of selfish, personal reasons and she started to realize this. She had broken down and it caused more hurt than it was worth.
When she returned, she still didn’t feel worthy of forgiveness, and was ready to accept the consequences of her actions, including the murder of Ashfur. However, that was pushed out of the way, and so she did the next best thing: sacrifice herself because she thought if any cat was to die, it should be her. When she’s brought to her biological mother, she states how she wishes she knew her more, also indicating regret
She has the most realistic redemption in the entirety of the series.
|
|
|
Post by kinkajou on Mar 14, 2019 15:46:10 GMT -5
Honestly...not really. Because she didn't even admit to what could be considered her greatest crime (killing Ashfur)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 15:49:57 GMT -5
Honestly...not really. Because she didn't even admit to what could be considered her greatest crime (killing Ashfur) I wouldn't consider Ashfur's death Hollyleaf's "Greatest Crime" - If anything, it would be Leafpool's admitted murder. As Ashfur did a lot to put it on himself, considering he's guilty of murdering and blackmailing Hollyleaf's family just day previously and still an active threat at his death. I doubt many Thunderclan cats would of put it against her.
|
|
Pixie
credit to poleyworld and pixelart
|
Post by Pixie on Mar 14, 2019 15:51:28 GMT -5
Honestly...not really. Because she didn't even admit to what could be considered her greatest crime (killing Ashfur) She was going to admit it, but Brambleclaw covered for her, and it would’ve ruined his reputation or whatever had she continued to try to do so.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 16:02:05 GMT -5
Honestly...not really. Because she didn't even admit to what could be considered her greatest crime (killing Ashfur) She was going to admit it, but Brambleclaw covered for her, and it would’ve ruined his reputation or whatever had she continued to try to do so. In all honesty, it wasn't that big of a deal. Only a few details were changed, but besides that, it's accurate. Ashfur did try to kill Hollyleaf. And if even she said it was an accident, she still took reasonability for his death and claimed was self-defence. Which it can argue, the actual murder was self-defence, since Ashfur was an active murderer spouting threats.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 14, 2019 16:23:56 GMT -5
Calling it well-written implies there was one to begin with. There wasn't one for you? Not really, no. There's no gradual process from insane crusader Hollyleaf to jaded tunnels Hollyleaf. It just happens in a flash. She hardly grapples with inner demons or realizes the truth of what she did as a big moment.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 16:29:27 GMT -5
There wasn't one for you? Not really, no. There's no gradual process from insane crusader Hollyleaf to jaded tunnels Hollyleaf. It just happens in a flash. She hardly grapples with inner demons or realizes the truth of what she did as a big moment. No offense, but it seems like you haven't read Hollyleaf's Story. That book focuses on her entire redemption arc. She realizes that what she's done was wrong, and Fallen Leaves tells her to appreciate both mothers, which, in the end, she did. I don't understand why you think she hasn't had a redemption when she worked hard to gain her Clan's trust and sacrificed her life to save Ivypool. She knows she messed up, unlike Ashfur who went to StarClan out of pure bias, but Hollyleaf had to work hard for everything. The redemption just "happened in a flash" to you because of bad writing. It's not the best written redemption, but it's certainly better than the garbage redemptions from Breezepelt or Needletail. If anything Needletail is the worst written one, as Breezepelt actually apologized and worked hard to prove himself, and this is coming from someone who hates CT.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 14, 2019 16:44:54 GMT -5
Not really, no. There's no gradual process from insane crusader Hollyleaf to jaded tunnels Hollyleaf. It just happens in a flash. She hardly grapples with inner demons or realizes the truth of what she did as a big moment. No offense, but it seems like you haven't read Hollyleaf's Story. That book focuses on her entire redemption arc. She realizes that what she's done was wrong, and Fallen Leaves tells her to appreciate both mothers, which, in the end, she did. I don't understand why you think she hasn't had a redemption when she worked hard to gain her Clan's trust and sacrificed her life to save Ivypool. She knows she messed up, unlike Ashfur who went to StarClan out of pure bias, but Hollyleaf had to work hard for everything. The redemption just "happened in a flash" to you because of bad writing. It's not the best written redemption, but it's certainly better than the garbage redemptions from Breezepelt or Needletail. If anything Needletail is the worst written one, as Breezepelt actually apologized and worked hard to prove himself, and this is coming from someone who hates CT. This is classic whataboutism. "Well what about Breezepelt or Needletail?" Well...what about them? Yeah, their redemptions aren't good either. Breezepelt's still a little psycho and Needletail is super selfish for not accepting even a hint of responsibility. That doesn't automatically bolster Hollyleaf though. Hollyleaf's story barely offers any focus to her redemption. It feels tacked on after the fact and certainly does not have her confronting the root causes of her problems. Rather, the focus is simply on convincing her that she could just go back rather than any particular sense of emotional catharsis. She's portrayed as too stable to begin with, not zealous enough. I won't call it a redemption arc because it's really not an arc to speak of. It's just stating that she got better.
|
|
|
Post by Brindlefern on Mar 14, 2019 17:50:04 GMT -5
I think her redemption was good. It feels out of nowhere if you haven't read her Novella, but I made sure to after reading Sunset and before I read TFW. So it feels much more gradual and genuine there, than if you was to skip the short story over entirely. It was sweet that Fallen Leaves was such a friend and acted like a therapist figure for the time she was there and confided to him, and he even told her to appreciate having both Squirrelflight AND Leafpool as her mothers (I mean come on I would think having two moms would be awesome... even if one is your "illegal mom".
So it was one of the better written ones in my eyes.
|
|
|
Post by kinkajou on Mar 14, 2019 20:00:12 GMT -5
Honestly...not really. Because she didn't even admit to what could be considered her greatest crime (killing Ashfur) I wouldn't consider Ashfur's death Hollyleaf's "Greatest Crime" - If anything, it would be Leafpool's admitted murder. As Ashfur did a lot to put it on himself, considering he's guilty of murdering and blackmailing Hollyleaf's family just day previously and still an active threat at his death. I doubt many Thunderclan cats would of put it against her. I actually agree but lots of people don't As for Bramblestar covering for her, I guess I see why she wouldn't admit it when he'd already done that to spare his reputation, but I wish he didn't in the first place. It's hard to be redeemed when most cats don't even know you need to be redeemed (at least in some people's opinion)...
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 14, 2019 20:46:46 GMT -5
No, lol. What redemption? All she did was run from her problems and came back cause she got caught. And then had another cat still lie for her and cover up her actions, and died in the end. Wasted potential that the Erins only brought back for one book meanwhile her siblings actually had to suffer and face hardships for moons. She chose to isolate herself and get funky with a dead cat in a cave. Sorry...but that's not well written imo, and I actually like her more than her siblings.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 14, 2019 21:23:12 GMT -5
I think it was fine, honestly? It's clear she genuinely regretted what she did and never tried to make excuses for her actions, even though Ashfur was a terrible cat. I find her easier to forgive because she made the ultimate sacrifice and was ready for it. And I don't think she'd try to make excuses in StarClan (unlike, say Needletail)
|
|