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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 0:46:50 GMT -5
Mothwing is probably one of my top 5 favorite cats. Why? Well, I find her lack of belief in StarClan very.. unique, especially because she's a medicine cat.
I understand why not believing in StarClan could be a problem. I understand why Mistystar and others might feel lied to. But does that make her a bad medicine cat? No. Mothwing saves lives. Yes, she made a mistake about the Moonpool, but cats aren't perfect. And that's also what makes her interesting. We see so many cats being perfect at their jobs, while Mothwing here makes mistakes. But she does learn. And look where she is now. Many cats respect her, and Willowshine, her unquestioningly loyalty to her mentor respects her enough to even keep her secret about her opinion on StarClan.
I'll admit, it was a really bad move of her for letting RiverClan believe that she believes in StarClan. But StarClan still approves of her. Heck, even Jayfeather, the stubborn, grumpy medicine cat respects her beliefs and even thinks that she is a good medicine cat!
Mothwing has a very good reason for not believing in StarClan. Her brother made a fake sign so she could become a medicine cat. And didn't he tell Mothwing that he put that sign there? I can't remember if he did or not, but I'm pretty sure he did. Hawkfrost took advantage of the power he had, the knowledge he knew about Motwhing's lack of belief in StarClan. Motwhing even said she tried to believe in StarClan, but thanks to her brother, couldn't.
Anyway, why is everyone mad at Mothwing for lying, yet some people like Mapleshade for letting others believe in a lie? Mapleshade let everyone believe in a lie and they're not angry with her.
Even though Mothwing doesn't believe in StarClan, she supports others. She helped support Jayfeather in The Last Hope:
She showed him the "burning tail" on the reed. She was there for Jayfeather when he was beginning to lose hope. Heck, he even agreed with her that StarClan seems to be getting in the way right now.
Mothwing is very loyal to the Clan that she's even willing to choose her own brother over her Clan. Can you really ask more than that from her? She's gone through a lot, and she's proven her loyalty multiple times to her Clan. Leafpool also helped train Willowshine, so RiverClan can now receive signs from StarClan.
I don't believe Mothwing is all that bad. Yeah, she lied. But StarClan still wants her to be a medicine cat, and Mistystar forgave her. So what's bad about it? All that matters is that Mothwing is very loyal, respects others' beliefs even though she doesn't believe in StarClan herself, and is willing to do anything to help her Clan.
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Bisexual
Wolfdusk
"Can you move your seat up?" "No."
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Post by Wolfdusk on Aug 20, 2016 10:11:25 GMT -5
I just... don't like her. Her possibly putting her Clanmates at risk by not believing in StarClan quite annoys me.
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Post by Wicked Witch on Aug 20, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -5
Yes, I do feel that makes her a bad medicine cat because it makes her incompetent in part of her job; despite it's title medicine cats are expected to do more than provide medicinal herbs, they are also responsible for transferring the messages from StarClan to their respective Clans. It's part of their jobs.
Yes, Mudfur/Stonefur/Idk, any cat can dream but prophetic dreams are typically given to a medicine cat. And it's not just dreams they handle, StarClan also gives out signs in the physical world in the shape of omens that are expected, once again, to be interpreted by the medicine cat StarClan may be okay with it but that doesn't mean I'm personally not especially considering her reason for not believing it. And speaking of that reason, wasn't it that she didn't believe in them because StarClan wouldn't let her suffer with the secret of the moth's wing thing? As soon as you figure out it's a lie just report it and don't expect dead cats to do it for you (and yes people are mad at Mapleshade's lie.At least people on this site do. Unless you meant her apologists then idk.)
An her showing the burning reed always confused me. Since the thing wasn't spreading or burning out this should hve been some sign of supernatural occurrences. Seems to be quite a nudge to StarClan, where most of the supernatural is mentioned to occur from. But then she gets Jayfeather a medicine cat who does believe in StarClan. She couldn't have expected him to get rid of it or anything so..but anyways the fact that Leafpool had to do this just shows her incompetence at being a proper medicine cat mentor and it just bothers me. And I don't credit her for respecting other cats beliefs when she mad a jab at Willowshine saying "if StarClan told her to jump in the lake she would."
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Aug 20, 2016 11:24:18 GMT -5
I always thought it was weird to not believe in StarClan in the Warriors universe. I mean, leaders literally have nine lives, some cats have powers, and a bunch of other supernatural things happen, such as the burning reed. Dead cats even fell from the sky and started attacking the clans. In the real world atheism is different because there is no real proof that God exists, but in Warriors, there is evidence pointing towards StarClan's existence even without the great battle.
That said, I understand that Mothwing didn't believe in StarClan because of her brother and it was sad that she was getting blackmailed by him. Though, I'm sure she saw her leaders lose lives at some point. What did she think then? "Oh, they weren't dead. They were just badly injured/really sick and they got better by some miracle"? So the whole not believing in StarClan thing was still confusing. Especially after the great battle. Although, I like to headcanon that she now knows that StarClan exists, but doesn't have faith in them because of the Hawkfrost thing.
I did enjoy her character and the sad relationship she had with Hawkfrost. It seemed that Hawkfrost wanted to furter her lack of faith so he had something to hold over her head to make up fake omens and that could have been why she was able to still not believe in StarClan when a leader loses a life. I did admire her healing skills, especially after her mentor died. And her lack of faith in StarClan did not hinder much because there were other cats such as Leafpool and Willowshine to interpret omens for her.
So overall, while I found her atheism a little confusing (especially after the great battle), I still enjoyed her as a character.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 12:38:54 GMT -5
I just always found it off because medicine cat's aren't just healers- they're the preacher of the clan. They're meant to be the most religious member of the clan and the closest to StarClan. If they weren't, why visit a highly religious site 24 times a year?
Do I think choosing the medicine cat automatically as the clan preacher inconvienent? Yeah, and I think they should differentiate the two roles- or at least split it, making one cat a healer and one a spiritual leader. That way the clan- if they wish- can have a spiritual leader, but at the same time have a cat who wants to work with medicine but not be involved in religious matters.
That way we can avoid the problem of clans being separated from spiritual matters just because their preacher is atheist- but that clans can also have freedom of unbelief while also pursuing their desired career.
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Post by Cloudshadow on Aug 21, 2016 5:22:18 GMT -5
You know what always confused and irritated me? Is that in TNP Mothwing is shown to be rather poor at her job because she lacks confidence in herself and when Reedwhisker as an apprentice nearly drowned in the river she panicked and didn't know what to do. After they move to the lake she also requires Leafpool's help with curing the poisoned cats but then all of a sudden in PoT she's this confident, apparently skilled and calm cat. I know time has passed but the change always felt drastic to me. I'd like to know where all that came from because she was still an unsure medicine cat apprentice when Mudfur died and she became RiverClan's sole medicine cat.
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Post by moonmasksunfrost on Aug 21, 2016 11:00:34 GMT -5
I agree that her unbelief in StarClan makes her unique and interesting.
However, the fact that she continued to not believe after the DF battle? That's what I take issue with. One of the Erins (Vicky? I forget) said that "she found a way to rationalize it," but that just paints Mothwing as being extremely stubborn, even when proof is shoved right in her face. She healed wounds caused by dead cats. She saw Clanmates killed by dead cats. She saw her Clanmates fighting with the dead cats of StarClan. The implications that this has on her intelligence are what bothers me; she has been shown to be perfectly smart and capable.
As a cat, I have never loved her, but neither have I disliked her. I've found her to be interesting; this issue I have is less with Mothwing herself and more about circumstance/what the Erins did with her.
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Post by ❄️Raccoonstep❄️ on Aug 21, 2016 14:56:12 GMT -5
I agree, even though she has made some bad moves, she is a good medicine cat in the end.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Aug 21, 2016 19:45:32 GMT -5
You know what always confused and irritated me? Is that in TNP Mothwing is shown to be rather poor at her job because she lacks confidence in herself and when Reedwhisker as an apprentice nearly drowned in the river she panicked and didn't know what to do. After they move to the lake she also requires Leafpool's help with curing the poisoned cats but then all of a sudden in PoT she's this confident, apparently skilled and calm cat. I know time has passed but the change always felt drastic to me. I'd like to know where all that came from because she was still an unsure medicine cat apprentice when Mudfur died and she became RiverClan's sole medicine cat. Practice and experience. She was nervous and poor at her job at first because her mentor died before she was done with her training. She was inexperienced and needed the help from Leafpool, a cat who has been an apprentice two moons longer and has Cinderpelt around in case she makes a mistake or has a question. Over time, she got better and became more confident with her abilities. I'm sure Hawkfrost didn't really help her either, so after he was dead, there was a huge weight off her shoulders. |
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Aug 21, 2016 20:12:00 GMT -5
I agree that her unbelief in StarClan makes her unique and interesting. However, the fact that she continued to not believe after the DF battle? That's what I take issue with. One of the Erins (Vicky? I forget) said that "she found a way to rationalize it," but that just paints Mothwing as being extremely stubborn, even when proof is shoved right in her face. She healed wounds caused by dead cats. She saw Clanmates killed by dead cats. She saw her Clanmates fighting with the dead cats of StarClan. The implications that this has on her intelligence are what bothers me; she has been shown to be perfectly smart and capable. As a cat, I have never loved her, but neither have I disliked her. I've found her to be interesting; this issue I have is less with Mothwing herself and more about circumstance/what the Erins did with her. Yes! This makes no sense at all what so ever. How can you have proof and still not believe? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 20:20:25 GMT -5
I agree that her unbelief in StarClan makes her unique and interesting. However, the fact that she continued to not believe after the DF battle? That's what I take issue with. One of the Erins (Vicky? I forget) said that "she found a way to rationalize it," but that just paints Mothwing as being extremely stubborn, even when proof is shoved right in her face. She healed wounds caused by dead cats. She saw Clanmates killed by dead cats. She saw her Clanmates fighting with the dead cats of StarClan. The implications that this has on her intelligence are what bothers me; she has been shown to be perfectly smart and capable. As a cat, I have never loved her, but neither have I disliked her. I've found her to be interesting; this issue I have is less with Mothwing herself and more about circumstance/what the Erins did with her. Yes! This makes no sense at all what so ever. How can you have proof and still not believe? ...tell that to my family.... |
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Post by kinkajou on Aug 21, 2016 20:25:20 GMT -5
Yes! This makes no sense at all what so ever. How can you have proof and still not believe? ...tell that to my family.... Is there any actual proof real-life religions are real tho |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 20:26:35 GMT -5
...tell that to my family.... Is there any actual proof real-life religions are real tho That's not what I was talking about.... |
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Post by kinkajou on Aug 21, 2016 20:29:23 GMT -5
Is there any actual proof real-life religions are real tho That's not what I was talking about.... Then what were you talking about? Does your family think it still makes sense for Mothwing to not believe in StarClan? |
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Post by Yoshimi on Aug 21, 2016 20:29:48 GMT -5
Is there any actual proof real-life religions are real tho That's not what I was talking about.... Well, that escalated quickly... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 20:30:12 GMT -5
That's not what I was talking about.... Then what were you talking about? Does your family think it still makes sense for Mothwing to not believe in StarClan? Well I guess that is true for my aunt |
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Post by Cloudshadow on Aug 22, 2016 1:42:31 GMT -5
You know what always confused and irritated me? Is that in TNP Mothwing is shown to be rather poor at her job because she lacks confidence in herself and when Reedwhisker as an apprentice nearly drowned in the river she panicked and didn't know what to do. After they move to the lake she also requires Leafpool's help with curing the poisoned cats but then all of a sudden in PoT she's this confident, apparently skilled and calm cat. I know time has passed but the change always felt drastic to me. I'd like to know where all that came from because she was still an unsure medicine cat apprentice when Mudfur died and she became RiverClan's sole medicine cat. Practice and experience. She was nervous and poor at her job at first because her mentor died before she was done with her training. She was inexperienced and needed the help from Leafpool, a cat who has been an apprentice two moons longer and has Cinderpelt around in case she makes a mistake or has a question. Over time, she got better and became more confident with her abilities. I'm sure Hawkfrost didn't really help her either, so after he was dead, there was a huge weight off her shoulders. Yeah, I know, I guess it's just something I'd have liked to see happen rather than entering a new series with a different cat. *shrugs* Having Hawkfrost gone would have been a huge relief. |
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Post by Ligerfrost on Aug 22, 2016 19:51:05 GMT -5
I don't think Mothwing was meant to be a medicine cat.
Both Vicky and Kate said that StarClan would not have sent a sign for her. Meaning Hawkfrost is literally the only reason she was able to become a medicine cat in the first place.
I believe she was in a similar position as Cinderpelt.
It was confirmed that Cinderpelt was never meant to be a medicine cat and signs of that were shown by the fact that she had no true connection to StarClan. She wasn't even able to join Firestar during his leadership ceremony which seems to be something that all medicine cats should be able to do. She was able to learn herbs and their uses but it didn't come easy to her like it has for other chosen medicine cats. Like Willowshine for example.
Mothwing wasn't naturally gifted with herbs nor did she have a special connection with StarClan. Usually cats chosen to be in the medicine cat position have one or both of these traits, the the cat needing to either learn the other trait or improve themselves.
*Slight spoiler warning*
In TAS Leafpool questions Rowanstar if Puddlekit had any of these things as well, if StarClan had spoken to him, if they had chosen Puddlekit or if Puddlekit showed signs of being a medicine cat.
*End of Spoiler*
Also Mothwing had many doubts in herself about if she was doing the job right. Even before Mudfur died. She couldn't remember simple healing procedures. So why do I think that Mothwing chose to remain a medicine cat? Well it's likely at first she had no choice. Her CLan needed a medicine cat so she worked hard to be a better medicine cat for them. She grew comfortable with the position and was able to pass on the knowledge she acquired to her apprentice. She grew to love her position more so after her brother died and she didn't have to deal with him.
When it comes to Mothwing, do I think she's a great medicine cat? No not really because she's only half good at her job. It's an important part of the position. If no one cared than she wouldn't be hiding the fact she doesn't believe in StarClan
She's learned to heal but she's useless if an omen or prophecy is sent that needs interpretation. And if Willowshine were to die before her and the Clan needed her to interpret an omen? Well that won'tb e pretty because she's horrible at faking prophecies.
She's okay as a character but I don't think she sould be a medicine cat if she can't do have the job required of her.
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Sunnypelt
I watched you sleep last night. .. it was fascinating
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Post by Sunnypelt on Aug 22, 2016 23:06:37 GMT -5
I like Mothflight, but I don't think she is a very good medecine cat if she doesn't believe in SC. Since receiving messages from them is a requirement.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 2:35:39 GMT -5
As an atheist myself, I don't think the belief, (or lack there of) of a higher power should effect how people, (or in this case, cats) see and treat you. A cat who does not believe in Starclan can do their job just as well as one that does. Maybe not the tonly curving messages from Starclan thing, but Starclan approve of here, and send their messages to Leafpool or Willowshine if they need to contact Riverclan.
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Post by Wicked Witch on Aug 23, 2016 23:27:13 GMT -5
As an atheist myself, I don't think the belief, (or lack there of) of a higher power should effect how people, (or in this case, cats) see and treat you. A cat who does not believe in Starclan can do their job just as well as one that does. Maybe not the tonly curving messages from Starclan thing, but Starclan approve of here, and send their messages to Leafpool or Willowshine if they need to contact Riverclan. It just comes as off as stubborn when a cat like Mothwing, who has a position to verify the existence of said higher power via monthly contact, still refuses to believe in them when they appear and start fighting other dead cats. A cat who doesn't beieve in StarClan cannot do their job as well if they're a medicine cat, this has been shown to be an issue in the later half of TNP. StarClan had to give RiverClan important messages such as: Twoleg interference, an apprentice who needs to be taught in reading signs and prophecies (Twilight) and access for catmint to cure an elder's greencough in Sunset. These are all issues that could lead to death something a med.cat should prevent--and yes even the second one because of well this very post should explain it: this could've been a cycle. If it weren't for Leafpool--a cat who's from an entirely different Clan. Yes there was Leafpool but the fact that RiverClan had to rely on another Clan(when it could've easily been handled single-pawed) shows Mothwing's incompetence because she is not doing the job required of her. Those three messages were important and demonstrate why it's vital to have a medicine cat who is in contact with StarClan. This is why it's part of their jobs. It's necessary. Leafpool should not have to be doing that for her. And neither should her apprentice who is being trained by her--they should work together on these omens. StarClan may approve but that doesn't mean they are right and that those issues caused should be ignored. Those issues caused should be accounted for more efficiently--and that means not having some other cat from a different Clan do it for you. StarCan must recognize the dangers of having a med.cat who doesn't believe in them or risk the self-sufficiency of a Clan. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 0:48:51 GMT -5
As an atheist myself, I don't think the belief, (or lack there of) of a higher power should effect how people, (or in this case, cats) see and treat you. A cat who does not believe in Starclan can do their job just as well as one that does. Maybe not the tonly curving messages from Starclan thing, but Starclan approve of here, and send their messages to Leafpool or Willowshine if they need to contact Riverclan. It just comes as off as stubborn when a cat like Mothwing, who has a position to verify the existence of said higher power via monthly contact, still refuses to believe in them when they appear and start fighting other dead cats. A cat who doesn't beieve in StarClan cannot do their job as well if they're a medicine cat, this has been shown to be an issue in the later half of TNP. StarClan had to give RiverClan important messages such as: Twoleg interference, an apprentice who needs to be taught in reading signs and prophecies (Twilight) and access for catmint to cure an elder's greencough in Sunset. These are all issues that could lead to death something a med.cat should prevent--and yes even the second one because of well this very post should explain it: this could've been a cycle. If it weren't for Leafpool--a cat who's from an entirely different Clan. Yes there was Leafpool but the fact that RiverClan had to rely on another Clan(when it could've easily been handled single-pawed) shows Mothwing's incompetence because she is not doing the job required of her. Those three messages were important and demonstrate why it's vital to have a medicine cat who is in contact with StarClan. This is why it's part of their jobs. It's necessary. Leafpool should not have to be doing that for her. And neither should her apprentice who is being trained by her--they should work together on these omens. StarClan may approve but that doesn't mean they are right and that those issues caused should be ignored. Those issues caused should be accounted for more efficiently--and that means not having some other cat from a different Clan do it for you. StarCan must recognize the dangers of having a med.cat who doesn't believe in them or risk the self-sufficiency of a Clan. My point is that Mothwing can still heal cats just as well as any other. She is stubborn, yes. I'm not denying that. I'm not sure I could remain an atheist is definite proof of a god or gods smacked me in the face. I thought it was a nice change. Riverclan and Thunderclan never got along before, because of sunningrocks. Then suddenly Riverclan had a handicapped medicine cat, and they needed to rely on Thunderclan's medicine cat to receive messages from Starclan. I hope that someday, Riverclan can return the favor. But knowing the Erins and their Thunderclan favoritism, it's not going to happen that way. With Willowshine, Mothwing not believing in Starclan isn't as much of an issue as it was in TNP/early POT. I'm not saying that she was the greatest medicine cat, but she could be a lot worse. I apologize if I come off as arrogant. The only reason I mention my lack of religious belief at all is because it impacts my view of certain characters and situations. |
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Post by prophet on Aug 24, 2016 1:21:02 GMT -5
Ok, I didn't read anything said by anyone else, so keep that in mind ^u^
As an Atheist, thanks for saying all of that. I always found it sad that people hated Mothwing for basically doing nothing except lie about her faith.
I respect Mothwing fully, because she's such a great medicine cat, and she stands by her beliefs.
I can see that in the Warrior's world, there is undoubtably a StarClan, but that's a different issue I don't care to discuss
Anyways, great post; I agree
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Post by Wicked Witch on Aug 24, 2016 17:21:52 GMT -5
It just comes as off as stubborn when a cat like Mothwing, who has a position to verify the existence of said higher power via monthly contact, still refuses to believe in them when they appear and start fighting other dead cats. A cat who doesn't beieve in StarClan cannot do their job as well if they're a medicine cat, this has been shown to be an issue in the later half of TNP. StarClan had to give RiverClan important messages such as: Twoleg interference, an apprentice who needs to be taught in reading signs and prophecies (Twilight) and access for catmint to cure an elder's greencough in Sunset. These are all issues that could lead to death something a med.cat should prevent--and yes even the second one because of well this very post should explain it: this could've been a cycle. If it weren't for Leafpool--a cat who's from an entirely different Clan. Yes there was Leafpool but the fact that RiverClan had to rely on another Clan(when it could've easily been handled single-pawed) shows Mothwing's incompetence because she is not doing the job required of her. Those three messages were important and demonstrate why it's vital to have a medicine cat who is in contact with StarClan. This is why it's part of their jobs. It's necessary. Leafpool should not have to be doing that for her. And neither should her apprentice who is being trained by her--they should work together on these omens. StarClan may approve but that doesn't mean they are right and that those issues caused should be ignored. Those issues caused should be accounted for more efficiently--and that means not having some other cat from a different Clan do it for you. StarCan must recognize the dangers of having a med.cat who doesn't believe in them or risk the self-sufficiency of a Clan. My point is that Mothwing can still heal cats just as well as any other. She is stubborn, yes. I'm not denying that. I'm not sure I could remain an atheist is definite proof of a god or gods smacked me in the face. I thought it was a nice change. Riverclan and Thunderclan never got along before, because of sunningrocks. Then suddenly Riverclan had a handicapped medicine cat, and they needed to rely on Thunderclan's medicine cat to receive messages from Starclan. I hope that someday, Riverclan can return the favor. But knowing the Erins and their Thunderclan favoritism, it's not going to happen that way. With Willowshine, Mothwing not believing in Starclan isn't as much of an issue as it was in TNP/early POT. I'm not saying that she was the greatest medicine cat, but she could be a lot worse. I apologize if I come off as arrogant. The only reason I mention my lack of religious belief at all is because it impacts my view of certain characters and situations. It was a nice change until the sub-plot didn't seem to make much sense IMO. Oh yes that was your point. I forgot to work that in. "With Willowshine, Mothwing not believing in Starclan isn't as much of an issue as it was in TNP/early POT" True, but I feel that is very risky and should not be used as a way to keep Mothwing in her position. Without Willowshine the issues could appear again and RiverClan will be left with a unqualified med.cat, like before; it becomes a cycle since the problem wasn't treated as potentially dangerous to a Clan's self-sufficiency in Mistystar's Omen. It's like StarClan aren't going to address all the issues caused by Mothwing's disbelief and this could mean they'll let it happen again and again. What if Willowshine die? And Leafpool is too busy or is also dead? This is why you must be fully qualified to perform a job so that you can independently handle and solve all the tasks like a fully trained med.cat should be. There are instances of a Clan only having one med. cat and this could happen to Mothwing at any time and their should be preparations for this (but have been ignored.) Mothwing's disbelief should bring up the question: Should a full-trained medicine cat, be able to do all the tasks required of him/her, keeping in mind that they could be the only medicine cat at any given point in time (period) ? It would seem this should be a yes if they are to be recognized as fully train. Cat B--Willowshine--should not have to overcompensate for the qualifications not present (but should be present) in Cat A--Mothwing. For example if a doctor A and doctor B both need to know pre-medicine and theology to do work that can be done independently then they should be in order to qualify for his/her job. If doctor A doesn't know anything about theology and is relying on his/her partner, doctor B, to do it all for him he should easily be deemed as unfit for the job. Doctor B could move on/not be there and doctor A would just be left with half the knowledge to work with and create easily avoided issues. Yes, I see your point that when it comes down to the medical side Mothwing has it down but, with scenarios like above could happen with Mothwing having to rely on Wilowshine and it should not be this way due to the risk. Especially when having two med.cats should be an advantage. You don't seem arrogant at all; you're doing this discussion in a civil manner. |
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