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Post by halogen on Mar 13, 2019 21:22:54 GMT -5
You’re also not considering that this is all under one leader and one book. But nope, just like every topic on this board, people have to jump to their negative overgeneralizations which is why I keep taking long breaks from this place I mean considering he's the only leader we see, is it any shock? And it's not just Stoneteller's behavior either, but the behavior of the Tribe. Talon actually accepts death as a legitimate punishment for his "failure" to kill a mountain lion and only says not to do it because he thinks he has a plan that'll work. That's the kind of screwed up honor thinking that smacks of indoctrination. Though Talon said when he heard that Stormfur was imprisoned that the Tribe he knew wouldn't do that. Remember Talon was a pretty old cat (had retired by Sign of the Moon) who would have seen how it was like before Sharptooth came. We saw the Tribe in a desperate situation where they were looking for something, anything, to stop them from just all being picked off one by one and killed, and fortunately they live in a universe where there is a real, certain afterlife and their ancestors can give them prophecies. That the Tribe of Endless Hunting isn't that effective is irrelevant - no real religion is known to be true and able to help one supernaturally in any way, and even if you believe in a religion everyone thinks some religions are not "true", and yet no one considers all religions cults. So the fact that the Tribe of Endless Hunting is known to be real and capable of giving prophecies that actually come true is a step ahead of real-world religions. Especially since the average Tribe cat isn't a Stoneteller and so doesn't connect directly with the Tribe of Endless Hunting - they don't have the best way of judging how effective they are unlike the readers who get to see them all the time through Jayfeather's POV. Given that set-up, is it really unsurprising for Tribe cats facing outright destruction and believing there might be a chance at salvation to act less moral than what would be typical for them? It seems like the burden of proof is on showing that the Tribe really was always like that. And I don't read that scene as Talon being so indoctrinated that he will accept death to "atone" but him trying to negotiate with Stoneteller to save his life, in a sort of "I know you want to kill me, but here's why you would regret it", not "I deserve to die, I'm so sorry". Talon was a sensible cat who was plenty capable of criticizing how the Tribe was turning out!
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 22:12:43 GMT -5
I mean considering he's the only leader we see, is it any shock? And it's not just Stoneteller's behavior either, but the behavior of the Tribe. Talon actually accepts death as a legitimate punishment for his "failure" to kill a mountain lion and only says not to do it because he thinks he has a plan that'll work. That's the kind of screwed up honor thinking that smacks of indoctrination. Though Talon said when he heard that Stormfur was imprisoned that the Tribe he knew wouldn't do that. Remember Talon was a pretty old cat (had retired by Sign of the Moon) who would have seen how it was like before Sharptooth came. We saw the Tribe in a desperate situation where they were looking for something, anything, to stop them from just all being picked off one by one and killed, and fortunately they live in a universe where there is a real, certain afterlife and their ancestors can give them prophecies. That the Tribe of Endless Hunting isn't that effective is irrelevant - no real religion is known to be true and able to help one supernaturally in any way, and even if you believe in a religion everyone thinks some religions are not "true", and yet no one considers all religions cults. So the fact that the Tribe of Endless Hunting is known to be real and capable of giving prophecies that actually come true is a step ahead of real-world religions. Especially since the average Tribe cat isn't a Stoneteller and so doesn't connect directly with the Tribe of Endless Hunting - they don't have the best way of judging how effective they are unlike the readers who get to see them all the time through Jayfeather's POV. Given that set-up, is it really unsurprising for Tribe cats facing outright destruction and believing there might be a chance at salvation to act less moral than what would be typical for them? It seems like the burden of proof is on showing that the Tribe really was always like that. And I don't read that scene as Talon being so indoctrinated that he will accept death to "atone" but him trying to negotiate with Stoneteller to save his life, in a sort of "I know you want to kill me, but here's why you would regret it", not "I deserve to die, I'm so sorry". Talon was a sensible cat who was plenty capable of criticizing how the Tribe was turning out! A member of the Tribe isn't going to be objective when talking about it. Talon may have been exiled but he still had loyalty to them. The difference between this and real world religions is that all real world religions stand equal in terms of degree of intervention. On the other hand, in the Warriors world, where religion is very real, we have one religion that is objectively less helpful than another. It is a problem that only exists because the religion is real. Burden of proof would actually be on the "Tribe wasn't always like this" idea. The "Tribe was always like this" side has already provided proof of the only time we see the Tribe on-screen as acting disturbingly cult-like. The "Tribe wasn't always like this" side hasn't offered any proof on this matter besides Talon's claim about how the Tribe he knew wouldn't do this, something highly suspect given that if this is in-fact a cult his word can't be 100% objective. The last bit is subjective, of course.
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Post by halogen on Mar 14, 2019 10:18:36 GMT -5
Though Talon said when he heard that Stormfur was imprisoned that the Tribe he knew wouldn't do that. Remember Talon was a pretty old cat (had retired by Sign of the Moon) who would have seen how it was like before Sharptooth came. We saw the Tribe in a desperate situation where they were looking for something, anything, to stop them from just all being picked off one by one and killed, and fortunately they live in a universe where there is a real, certain afterlife and their ancestors can give them prophecies. That the Tribe of Endless Hunting isn't that effective is irrelevant - no real religion is known to be true and able to help one supernaturally in any way, and even if you believe in a religion everyone thinks some religions are not "true", and yet no one considers all religions cults. So the fact that the Tribe of Endless Hunting is known to be real and capable of giving prophecies that actually come true is a step ahead of real-world religions. Especially since the average Tribe cat isn't a Stoneteller and so doesn't connect directly with the Tribe of Endless Hunting - they don't have the best way of judging how effective they are unlike the readers who get to see them all the time through Jayfeather's POV. Given that set-up, is it really unsurprising for Tribe cats facing outright destruction and believing there might be a chance at salvation to act less moral than what would be typical for them? It seems like the burden of proof is on showing that the Tribe really was always like that. And I don't read that scene as Talon being so indoctrinated that he will accept death to "atone" but him trying to negotiate with Stoneteller to save his life, in a sort of "I know you want to kill me, but here's why you would regret it", not "I deserve to die, I'm so sorry". Talon was a sensible cat who was plenty capable of criticizing how the Tribe was turning out! A member of the Tribe isn't going to be objective when talking about it. Talon may have been exiled but he still had loyalty to them. The difference between this and real world religions is that all real world religions stand equal in terms of degree of intervention. On the other hand, in the Warriors world, where religion is very real, we have one religion that is objectively less helpful than another. It is a problem that only exists because the religion is real. Burden of proof would actually be on the "Tribe wasn't always like this" idea. The "Tribe was always like this" side has already provided proof of the only time we see the Tribe on-screen as acting disturbingly cult-like. The "Tribe wasn't always like this" side hasn't offered any proof on this matter besides Talon's claim about how the Tribe he knew wouldn't do this, something highly suspect given that if this is in-fact a cult his word can't be 100% objective. The last bit is subjective, of course. The Tribe cats didn't have the Clans' religion to compare to, and most Tribe cats didn't have nearly the amount of direct contact with their ancestors like the readers did to judge them as so useless. All the average Tribe cat knew is that their religion was real, that the cats who they loved who died were there in the afterlife able to interact with them and presumably would have all the reason in the world to help them, and that they sent prophecies that actually came true. The readers have the information to make the judgment that StarClan is more effective, the Tribe cats do not. All of their cult-like actions revolved around this and Sharptooth. They had no other hope, were dying in droves, except for the convenient fact that they had a religion that was real. If you were in a Tribe cat's position without all of the reader's information about the Tribe of Endless Hunting, would you really lay down and die just to make sure you would never do anything cult-like, or would you try to do something about the prophecy that might give hope for you and your family and friends - which actually did work, the silver cat did really save them. Given the extreme situation they were in and how their behavior was explicitly motivated by this desperation, it really does seem like the burden of proof is on those assuming this is the Tribe's behavior when everything's happy and safe and going fine.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 14, 2019 10:25:00 GMT -5
A member of the Tribe isn't going to be objective when talking about it. Talon may have been exiled but he still had loyalty to them. The difference between this and real world religions is that all real world religions stand equal in terms of degree of intervention. On the other hand, in the Warriors world, where religion is very real, we have one religion that is objectively less helpful than another. It is a problem that only exists because the religion is real. Burden of proof would actually be on the "Tribe wasn't always like this" idea. The "Tribe was always like this" side has already provided proof of the only time we see the Tribe on-screen as acting disturbingly cult-like. The "Tribe wasn't always like this" side hasn't offered any proof on this matter besides Talon's claim about how the Tribe he knew wouldn't do this, something highly suspect given that if this is in-fact a cult his word can't be 100% objective. The last bit is subjective, of course. The Tribe cats didn't have the Clans' religion to compare to, and most Tribe cats didn't have nearly the amount of direct contact with their ancestors like the readers did to judge them as so useless. All the average Tribe cat knew is that their religion was real, that the cats who they loved who died were there in the afterlife able to interact with them and presumably would have all the reason in the world to help them, and that they sent prophecies that actually came true. The readers have the information to make the judgment that StarClan is more effective, the Tribe cats do not. All of their cult-like actions revolved around this and Sharptooth. They had no other hope, were dying in droves, except for the convenient fact that they had a religion that was real. If you were in a Tribe cat's position without all of the reader's information about the Tribe of Endless Hunting, would you really lay down and die just to make sure you would never do anything cult-like, or would you try to do something about the prophecy that might give hope for you and your family and friends - which actually did work, the silver cat did really save them. Given the extreme situation they were in and how their behavior was explicitly motivated by this desperation, it really does seem like the burden of proof is on those assuming this is the Tribe's behavior when everything's happy and safe and going fine. But Stoneteller DOES have that information. If he's withholding it from the Tribe, does that not make it the very definition of a cult? Most cult members, after all, whole heartedly believe in their dear leader. It's just that said dear leader is lying to them and manipulating them.
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Post by halogen on Mar 14, 2019 11:55:49 GMT -5
The Tribe cats didn't have the Clans' religion to compare to, and most Tribe cats didn't have nearly the amount of direct contact with their ancestors like the readers did to judge them as so useless. All the average Tribe cat knew is that their religion was real, that the cats who they loved who died were there in the afterlife able to interact with them and presumably would have all the reason in the world to help them, and that they sent prophecies that actually came true. The readers have the information to make the judgment that StarClan is more effective, the Tribe cats do not. All of their cult-like actions revolved around this and Sharptooth. They had no other hope, were dying in droves, except for the convenient fact that they had a religion that was real. If you were in a Tribe cat's position without all of the reader's information about the Tribe of Endless Hunting, would you really lay down and die just to make sure you would never do anything cult-like, or would you try to do something about the prophecy that might give hope for you and your family and friends - which actually did work, the silver cat did really save them. Given the extreme situation they were in and how their behavior was explicitly motivated by this desperation, it really does seem like the burden of proof is on those assuming this is the Tribe's behavior when everything's happy and safe and going fine. But Stoneteller DOES have that information. If he's withholding it from the Tribe, does that not make it the very definition of a cult? Most cult members, after all, whole heartedly believe in their dear leader. It's just that said dear leader is lying to them and manipulating them. Stoneteller genuinely believed in the Tribe of Endless Hunting having the Tribe's best interest at heart, that's why he goes into such despair throughout Outcast and Sign of the Moon as he slowly realizes that they aren't going to save him. He's not just lying about the Tribe of Endless Hunting in a completely cynical way.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 14, 2019 22:20:56 GMT -5
I personally don't mind the Tribe. In fact, I actually somewhat enjoyed the books they were in, though I'm not too crazy about them, either. As for whether they're a cult or not, I think going through the BITE would at least be a good start to see if they are. freedomofmind.com/bite-model/
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Post by dashingshadows on Mar 14, 2019 23:08:49 GMT -5
I have to agree with the Tribe of Endless Hunting: the tribe needs to leave the mountains, it’s a terrible place to live and none of the tribe’s cultural adaptations are making it any better (Many are actively making it worse)
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Non-binary
!Rowanfur
i love SEAGULLS and my GIRLFRIEND
Pronouns: they/them, he/him
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Post by !Rowanfur on Mar 14, 2019 23:22:05 GMT -5
I have to agree with the Tribe of Endless Hunting: the tribe needs to leave the mountains, it’s a terrible place to live and none of the tribe’s cultural adaptations are making it any better (Many are actively making it worse) my favorite thing is that they were "destined" to be there, but like, why??? like i get that it had to happen for continuity's sake but jay's wing's whole thing was... kinda terrible, imo. i get that they wanted to somehow link the tribe and the clans but i think it was kind of silly.... yknow, like, having a cat go back and ASSUREDLY keep the flow of time stable for some reason. did we really need time shenanigans in these books? u_u
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