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Post by !Rowanfur on Mar 12, 2019 17:33:12 GMT -5
i remember, back in the day when i was way more into the series, pondering the tribe, its setup, its place in the warriors setting, and how thinly veiled it is as just clans-lite.
even when they were first introduced, their structure was just an echo of what the clans had - it had a leader/medicine cat position, which i feel was unique, and it split the warrior rank into two roles, but the rest of it was just the same thing the clans had with alternate names... which didn't feel very original, imo.
at one point i'd rewritten the entirety of the tribe structure, but it ended up being so different i might as well have called it a separate entity from the tribe entirely.
my question for you all is - could the tribe theoretically be developed further by the authors in a way that doesn't mimic the clan system, or is it too late for that?
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 12, 2019 17:43:06 GMT -5
It's too late to change it at this point. As by now the clan's have interfered with the Rushing Water Tribe enough to where it's just a discount clan, even their former Stoneteller lost faith in them until he was dead.
It's why I'll always be disappointed in how othe groups that aren't clans are treated by clan cats in a clan's PoV tbh. They GOTTA be like the clans when they're sticking their noses in the other groups' lives or else it's the WRONG way to live. Ugh.
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Non-binary
!Rowanfur
i love SEAGULLS and my GIRLFRIEND
Pronouns: they/them, he/him
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Post by !Rowanfur on Mar 12, 2019 17:47:07 GMT -5
It's too late to change it at this point. As by now the clan's have interfered with the Rushing Water Tribe enough to where it's just a discount clan, even their former Stoneteller lost faith in them until he was dead. It's why I'll always be disappointed in how othe groups that aren't clans are treated by clan cats in a clan's PoV tbh. They GOTTA be like the clans when they're sticking their noses in the other groups' lives or else it's the WRONG way to live. Ugh. yeah i 100% agree honestly : / it's really too bad, it'd be interesting to see them interact with a more vastly different societal structure!
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Non-binary
!Rowanfur
i love SEAGULLS and my GIRLFRIEND
Pronouns: they/them, he/him
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Post by !Rowanfur on Mar 12, 2019 20:04:29 GMT -5
But doesn't it make sense that the Tribe of Rushing Water would have a similar social structure to the modern Clans? Because they are the predecessor of the Clans? I mean, I think the social structure is definitely different enough to make it a separate entity (such as a lack of a deputy, separating roles between cave guards and prey hunters, the leader also being the healer of the Clan) but also remind us of the Clans. I know when the Tribe was introduced it was probably not even considered being tied to the Clans at all, but since it is, the similarities do make sense canonically. well, consider that they probably didn't have that planned initially - i imagine they weren't written originally to have any link to the clans in terms of ancestry. i guess we don't know for sure without some sort of Word of God though : P
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Post by halogen on Mar 12, 2019 21:18:15 GMT -5
It's too late to change it at this point. As by now the clan's have interfered with the Rushing Water Tribe enough to where it's just a discount clan, even their former Stoneteller lost faith in them until he was dead. It's why I'll always be disappointed in how othe groups that aren't clans are treated by clan cats in a clan's PoV tbh. They GOTTA be like the clans when they're sticking their noses in the other groups' lives or else it's the WRONG way to live. Ugh. Yeah, it could have been an interesting path to go on after a whole series of seeing Firestar and other ThunderClan cats intervening in other Clans and it always being good and heroic thing, to encounter other groups and having Clan cats' interventions to "help" them end up being arrogant and mess things up. But instead the Clan protagonists are still always right in their interactions with other groups.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 21:18:44 GMT -5
They're basically a cat cult, and honestly I hope they're no longer in the narrative anymore.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 12, 2019 22:12:37 GMT -5
The Tribe is fine, I’ll never understand the complaining about them
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Post by Papillon on Mar 13, 2019 9:52:38 GMT -5
All the clan did was teach them how to have borders. Which they needed. Because of the trespassers. They didn't switch it up so they have leader and medicine cat, they still have just one; Stoneteller. They didn't make them change their names to -paw, -kit, -star, etc., they didn't change the way the have prey hunters and cave guards, they didn't add the deputy position. They didn't change or add any ceremonies. They didn't change the way they share prey. They didn't do anything except give them borders. They didn't make them into another clan. I don't even like the tribe really, but they aren't a "discount clan" lmao
And the only thing I recall clans every "forcing" onto other groups is caring for every cat, the kits and elders first
If the tribe seems like boring, wasted potential, it's because they we're written as boring, wasted potential. Not really anything the clans did
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 10:36:49 GMT -5
Tbh the Tribe would have been more interesting as a crazy murder cult. Instead they're just a regular cult and ten times more boring thanks to that.
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Post by Haze on Mar 13, 2019 10:45:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that the clans are cults too... a war cult actually.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 11:05:53 GMT -5
Anyone wanna explain how the Tribe is anymore of a “cult” than the Clans or is that just what people make up to complain about them?
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 11:12:04 GMT -5
Anyone wanna explain how the Tribe is anymore of a “cult” than the Clans or is that just what people make up to complain about them? Cats in the clans tend to be able to think about themselves and act on their own merits along with recovering from bad leadership. The Tribe, on the other hand, has about as much competence as a bunch of headless chickens if Stoneteller is indisposed in some way. It's the level of subservience to their leader that makes them seem more cult-like rather than a choice like Clan-life. The leader's word is in theory law in the clans, but it's never really viewed as such. In the Tribe on the other hand, it definitely is. Also, the Clans' ancestors actually watch over them and support them. The Tribe's ancestors just waffle around and outright dump them in the dust at times. Having a religion that is categorically worse than the Clans' doesn't help.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 11:39:49 GMT -5
All the clan did was teach them how to have borders. Which they needed. Because of the trespassers. They didn't switch it up so they have leader and medicine cat, they still have just one; Stoneteller. They didn't make them change their names to -paw, -kit, -star, etc., they didn't change the way the have prey hunters and cave guards, they didn't add the deputy position. They didn't change or add any ceremonies. They didn't change the way they share prey. They didn't do anything except give them borders. They didn't make them into another clan. I don't even like the tribe really, but they aren't a "discount clan" lmao And the only thing I recall clans every "forcing" onto other groups is caring for every cat, the kits and elders first If the tribe seems like boring, wasted potential, it's because they we're written as boring, wasted potential. Not really anything the clans did So they’re a cult because their leader is stronger? Interesting take
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 13:19:02 GMT -5
So they’re a cult because their leader is stronger? Interesting take I never said anywhere that they were a cult? ?? ? Or think that in any way ?? Sorry, quoted the wrong post.
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i love SEAGULLS and my GIRLFRIEND
Pronouns: they/them, he/him
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Post by !Rowanfur on Mar 13, 2019 13:39:36 GMT -5
Anyone wanna explain how the Tribe is anymore of a “cult” than the Clans or is that just what people make up to complain about them? Cats in the clans tend to be able to think about themselves and act on their own merits along with recovering from bad leadership. The Tribe, on the other hand, has about as much competence as a bunch of headless chickens if Stoneteller is indisposed in some way. It's the level of subservience to their leader that makes them seem more cult-like rather than a choice like Clan-life. The leader's word is in theory law in the clans, but it's never really viewed as such. In the Tribe on the other hand, it definitely is. Also, the Clans' ancestors actually watch over them and support them. The Tribe's ancestors just waffle around and outright dump them in the dust at times. Having a religion that is categorically worse than the Clans' doesn't help. hi! i hadn't really considered them cultlike - to be a cult i imagine they follow the following rules: 1) difficulty forming relationships outside of the group (potential check, but i'm hesitant to really mark this off without solid proof) 2) difficulty leaving the group (namely without being demonized) 3) everything the leader says goes (potential check, but i'd like to hear any specific examples you have of this?) i also find cults usually have some sort of ulterior motive - which i can't really see in the tribe, outside of serving their ancestors, which isn't completely cultlike, imo. i feel like there'd have to be some self-serving motive to have a true cult leader, but i can't necessarily think of one? anyways, i'd like to hear what examples you have to back up what you've discussed!
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 14:00:14 GMT -5
Cats in the clans tend to be able to think about themselves and act on their own merits along with recovering from bad leadership. The Tribe, on the other hand, has about as much competence as a bunch of headless chickens if Stoneteller is indisposed in some way. It's the level of subservience to their leader that makes them seem more cult-like rather than a choice like Clan-life. The leader's word is in theory law in the clans, but it's never really viewed as such. In the Tribe on the other hand, it definitely is. Also, the Clans' ancestors actually watch over them and support them. The Tribe's ancestors just waffle around and outright dump them in the dust at times. Having a religion that is categorically worse than the Clans' doesn't help. hi! i hadn't really considered them cultlike - to be a cult i imagine they follow the following rules: 1) difficulty forming relationships outside of the group (potential check, but i'm hesitant to really mark this off without solid proof) 2) difficulty leaving the group (namely without being demonized) 3) everything the leader says goes (potential check, but i'd like to hear any specific examples you have of this?) i also find cults usually have some sort of ulterior motive - which i can't really see in the tribe, outside of serving their ancestors, which isn't completely cultlike, imo. i feel like there'd have to be some self-serving motive to have a true cult leader, but i can't necessarily think of one? anyways, i'd like to hear what examples you have to back up what you've discussed! 1. Their isolation is complete so meeting outsiders is rare anyway. That being said, when Stormfur and Brook were kicked out, they were pariahs to the group. They could have lived nearby as loners but didn't. Not hard proof but I don't think that they had much left there due to their reaction. 2. Stoneteller kicking out Stormfur and Brook was pretty rough. Also honorable mention to the Sharptooth stuff. 3. Likewise to the above. Serving ancestors isn't usually cult-like, however, these ancestors demonstrably don't give a mousetail about the Tribe and at times complain about how it's all useless and they shouldn't even try anymore. So in this case I would say that serving actual spirits who don't care while claiming they do care is cultish.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 16:13:22 GMT -5
hi! i hadn't really considered them cultlike - to be a cult i imagine they follow the following rules: 1) difficulty forming relationships outside of the group (potential check, but i'm hesitant to really mark this off without solid proof) 2) difficulty leaving the group (namely without being demonized) 3) everything the leader says goes (potential check, but i'd like to hear any specific examples you have of this?) i also find cults usually have some sort of ulterior motive - which i can't really see in the tribe, outside of serving their ancestors, which isn't completely cultlike, imo. i feel like there'd have to be some self-serving motive to have a true cult leader, but i can't necessarily think of one? anyways, i'd like to hear what examples you have to back up what you've discussed! 1. Their isolation is complete so meeting outsiders is rare anyway. That being said, when Stormfur and Brook were kicked out, they were pariahs to the group. They could have lived nearby as loners but didn't. Not hard proof but I don't think that they had much left there due to their reaction. 2. Stoneteller kicking out Stormfur and Brook was pretty rough. Also honorable mention to the Sharptooth stuff. 3. Likewise to the above. Serving ancestors isn't usually cult-like, however, these ancestors demonstrably don't give a mousetail about the Tribe and at times complain about how it's all useless and they shouldn't even try anymore. So in this case I would say that serving actual spirits who don't care while claiming they do care is cultish. Also, there was that group of 6 that Stoneteller basically exiled until they killed Sharptooth. Despite 3 of them dying and 1 losing their tail, the Tribe still wanted them killed for returning. Despite them only doing it because they brought back the Clan cats... The Tribe is just seriously Creepy.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 16:25:10 GMT -5
1. Their isolation is complete so meeting outsiders is rare anyway. That being said, when Stormfur and Brook were kicked out, they were pariahs to the group. They could have lived nearby as loners but didn't. Not hard proof but I don't think that they had much left there due to their reaction. 2. Stoneteller kicking out Stormfur and Brook was pretty rough. Also honorable mention to the Sharptooth stuff. 3. Likewise to the above. Serving ancestors isn't usually cult-like, however, these ancestors demonstrably don't give a mousetail about the Tribe and at times complain about how it's all useless and they shouldn't even try anymore. So in this case I would say that serving actual spirits who don't care while claiming they do care is cultish. Also, there was that group of 6 that Stoneteller basically exiled until they killed Sharptooth. Despite 3 of them dying and 1 losing their tail, the Tribe still wanted them killed for returning. Despite them only doing it because they brought back the Clan cats... The Tribe is just seriously Creepy. what?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 16:35:42 GMT -5
Also, there was that group of 6 that Stoneteller basically exiled until they killed Sharptooth. Despite 3 of them dying and 1 losing their tail, the Tribe still wanted them killed for returning. Despite them only doing it because they brought back the Clan cats... The Tribe is just seriously Creepy. what? Don't you remember during Moonrise? After the Six travelling cats escaped the Tribe after Sharptooth's attack they found the three survivors: Talon, Rock and Bird.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 17:10:07 GMT -5
Don't you remember during Moonrise? After the Six travelling cats escaped the Tribe after Sharptooth's attack they found the three survivors: Talon, Rock and Bird. I remember that, but no one wanted to kill them for returning.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 17:36:45 GMT -5
Don't you remember during Moonrise? After the Six travelling cats escaped the Tribe after Sharptooth's attack they found the three survivors: Talon, Rock and Bird. I remember that, but no one wanted to kill them for returning. Well get comfortable, as I tell you how delightful the Tribe can trully be:
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 13, 2019 17:39:03 GMT -5
Don't you remember during Moonrise? After the Six travelling cats escaped the Tribe after Sharptooth's attack they found the three survivors: Talon, Rock and Bird. Yeah, and then when they did go back the Tribe blamed them for the Sharptooth attack, both the survivors of the first group and the traveling cats whom they forced into all of this in the first place. Their mindsets are incredibly creepy, there's also the blatant Stockholm Syndrome between Brook and Stormfur, ugh.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 17:40:10 GMT -5
I remember that, but no one wanted to kill them for returning. Well get comfortable, as I tell you how delightful the Tribe can trully be: It's like a microcosm of cults summarized into a set of paragraphs.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 17:47:52 GMT -5
I remember that, but no one wanted to kill them for returning. Well get comfortable, as I tell you how delightful the Tribe can trully be: So one cat?
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Post by なんで私 on Mar 13, 2019 18:03:33 GMT -5
They're basically a cat cult, and honestly I hope they're no longer in the narrative anymore. Hey here's a great idea!!! Let's trap a cat we saved in our cave and make him kill a frickin mountain lion for us hooray!!!! Also I recall from reading Moonrise, they were chanting and I got some cult vibes at that moment.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 18:32:48 GMT -5
Well get comfortable, as I tell you how delightful the Tribe can trully be: So one cat? The fact that no other cat seems shocked by it, that they specifically tell Stoneteller to kill them, that Talon outright brings up death as a reasonable punishment from Stoneteller heavily suggests that this a commandment straight from Stoneteller. Not a good look when the leader that you all revere with absolute potency has the unilateral power to end lives and has convinced others that it's just and well.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 13, 2019 18:51:33 GMT -5
The fact that no other cat seems shocked by it, that they specifically tell Stoneteller to kill them, that Talon outright brings up death as a reasonable punishment from Stoneteller heavily suggests that this a commandment straight from Stoneteller. Not a good look when the leader that you all revere with absolute potency has the unilateral power to end lives and has convinced others that it's just and well. You’re also not considering that this is all under one leader and one book. But nope, just like every topic on this board, people have to jump to their negative overgeneralizations which is why I keep taking long breaks from this place
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 19:35:46 GMT -5
The fact that no other cat seems shocked by it, that they specifically tell Stoneteller to kill them, that Talon outright brings up death as a reasonable punishment from Stoneteller heavily suggests that this a commandment straight from Stoneteller. Not a good look when the leader that you all revere with absolute potency has the unilateral power to end lives and has convinced others that it's just and well. You’re also not considering that this is all under one leader and one book. But nope, just like every topic on this board, people have to jump to their negative overgeneralizations which is why I keep taking long breaks from this place I mean considering he's the only leader we see, is it any shock? And it's not just Stoneteller's behavior either, but the behavior of the Tribe. Talon actually accepts death as a legitimate punishment for his "failure" to kill a mountain lion and only says not to do it because he thinks he has a plan that'll work. That's the kind of screwed up honor thinking that smacks of indoctrination.
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