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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 16:43:28 GMT -5
Smokehaze being shy and staying close to her mentor isn't a sign she's being abused by her father. That's just grasping straws just to try and support your argument that he's a bad dad when we've literally had no evidence he's abusive to Heathertail as a mate or his kits.Like you have no evidence he's good father either. I don't see how I'm grasping at straws: Breezepelt tried murdering his own family, that should be evidence enough on it's own. Vicky also said Breezepelt threatened others to hog a single Heathertail's affections. Breezepelt never told Heathertail after DF training. Breezepelt was aware Heathertail could be killed by the Dark Forest, but allied with them anyway. All quotes of the controlling interactions between him and Heatherpaw as apprentices. Heathertail's pervious experience with a murderous lover. Breezpelt and Heathertail have conflicting options on outsiders. Then that aggressive argument they had as warriors. Breezepelt never having a heathy relationship in his life, not even with Nightcloud, coddling him.
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Post by Haze on Feb 28, 2019 16:57:24 GMT -5
The Erin's made and entire super edition for his redemption just for him to be like Crowfeather? That stretching way too much.
By the way, Breezepelt had an apprentice, Boulderfur, he is seen fighting against the DF, meaning that even tough Breezepelt was on his worse he at least was not bad enough to drag his apprentice down with him.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 28, 2019 16:59:11 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but there's more evidence in the way that they're a healthy relationship than they're not You're fine not to like Breezepelt, but it's not fair to make things up about his current character
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 17:04:32 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but there's more evidence in the way that they're a healthy relationship than they're not You're fine not to like Breezepelt, but it's not fair to make things up about his current character His current character is almost non-existent, he's only an aggressive background characters. Your interpretation that Breezepelt is a heathy father/mate is also "making things up about his current character".
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 28, 2019 17:15:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but there's more evidence in the way that they're a healthy relationship than they're not You're fine not to like Breezepelt, but it's not fair to make things up about his current character His current character is almost non-existent, he's only an aggressive background characters. Your interpretation that Breezepelt is a heathy father/mate is also "making things up about his current character". It's really not since CT exists. Where he's shown to be wonderful with Heathertail
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 17:23:57 GMT -5
His current character is almost non-existent, he's only an aggressive background characters. Your interpretation that Breezepelt is a heathy father/mate is also "making things up about his current character". It's really not since CT exists. Where he's shown to be wonderful with Heathertail But Vision of Shadows seems to show he's gone back from his redemptions season laters. He hadn't had a positive moments to enforce Crowfeather's Trial, only hypocritical and aggressive. Is so outlandish to think someone who tried murdering their own family and never had healthy relationship - Will likely not be a heathy father/mates? Maybe you could say he won't be extreme as abusive, but not certainly for good parents either.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 28, 2019 17:28:40 GMT -5
It's really not since CT exists. Where he's shown to be wonderful with Heathertail But Vision of Shadows seems to show he's gone back from his redemptions season laters. He hadn't had a positive moments to enforce Crowfeather's Trial, only hypocritical and aggressive. Is so outlandish to think someone who tried murdering their own family and never had healthy relationship - Will likely not be a heathy father/mates? Maybe you could say he won't be extreme as abusive, but not certainly for good parents either. AVOS was mostly written before CT, clearly. Either way, CT exists and has shown that Breezepelt has largely made amends with essentially all of his family besides Jayfeather. It is outlandish when we've just had a book to show us that he is capable of changing and moving on. If this was pre-CT, I MIGHT have seen where you were coming from, but all of CT was a redemption of Crowfeather, Breezepelt, and Nightcloud. That was the purpose. Breezepelt has also only shown to be hostile to other clans, but most clan cats are like that. If we saw that as being likely to be an abusive father, then...most cats would be abusive
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 17:31:46 GMT -5
But Vision of Shadows seems to show he's gone back from his redemptions season laters. He hadn't had a positive moments to enforce Crowfeather's Trial, only hypocritical and aggressive. Is so outlandish to think someone who tried murdering their own family and never had healthy relationship - Will likely not be a heathy father/mates? Maybe you could say he won't be extreme as abusive, but not certainly for good parents either. AVOS was mostly written before CT, clearly. Either way, CT exists and has shown that Breezepelt has largely made amends with essentially all of his family besides Jayfeather. It is outlandish when we've just had a book to show us that he is capable of changing and moving on. If this was pre-CT, I MIGHT have seen where you were coming from, but all of CT was a redemption of Crowfeather, Breezepelt, and Nightcloud. That was the purpose. Breezepelt has also only shown to be hostile to other clans, but most clan cats are like that. If we saw that as being likely to be an abusive father, then...most cats would be abusive Well- I don't think Crowfeather's Trial "redemption" was good enough and didn't change Breezepelt enough to convice me could ever be a good family man. Even during that book, Breezpelt still questionable things: Lying about the full extent to his crimes, including not telling Crowfeather that he actually tried to kill two of his sons, not just Lionblaze. Also, not defending Crowfeather from his exile, despite him getting away with much worse. It also ended before it could get into how Breezepelt affected by his parents splitting up. Which is will probably be a future major setback after his whole "redemption".
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 28, 2019 17:40:32 GMT -5
AVOS was mostly written before CT, clearly. Either way, CT exists and has shown that Breezepelt has largely made amends with essentially all of his family besides Jayfeather. It is outlandish when we've just had a book to show us that he is capable of changing and moving on. If this was pre-CT, I MIGHT have seen where you were coming from, but all of CT was a redemption of Crowfeather, Breezepelt, and Nightcloud. That was the purpose. Breezepelt has also only shown to be hostile to other clans, but most clan cats are like that. If we saw that as being likely to be an abusive father, then...most cats would be abusive Well- I don't think Crowfeather's Trial "redemption" was good enough and didn't change Breezepelt enough to convice me could ever be a good family man. Even during that book, Breezpelt still questionable things: Lying about the full extent to his crimes, including not telling Crowfeather that he actually tried to kill two of his sons, not just Lionblaze. Also, not defending Crowfeather from his exile, despite him getting away with much worse. It also ended before it could get into how Breezepelt affected by his parents splitting up. Which is will probably be a future major setback after his whole "redemption". Doesn't matter. The author's intent was clearly to show he'd changed and redeemed himself. I can guarantee you that he is not an abusive mate or father.
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Post by Protractor on Feb 28, 2019 17:42:34 GMT -5
Have you read CT yet.The boy looked to her for emotional support for the fraction of the book when he thought she was dead.There was barley a time in that book they weren't together.She obviously cared about him enough to forget their apprentice times.If you asked me,I'd say this is pretty biased.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 17:42:41 GMT -5
Well- I don't think Crowfeather's Trial "redemption" was good enough and didn't change Breezepelt enough to convice me could ever be a good family man. Even during that book, Breezpelt still questionable things: Lying about the full extent to his crimes, including not telling Crowfeather that he actually tried to kill two of his sons, not just Lionblaze. Also, not defending Crowfeather from his exile, despite him getting away with much worse. It also ended before it could get into how Breezepelt affected by his parents splitting up. Which is will probably be a future major setback after his whole "redemption". Doesn't matter. The author's intent was clearly to show he'd changed and redeemed himself. I can guarantee you that he is not an abusive mate or father. It was also the author's intent that Ashfur deserved to go to Starclan and his "only flat was he loved too much" - Doesn't me I'm conviced. Call me overly stubborn, but it's makes the most logical sense to me Beezepelt is not a good father/mate .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 17:44:05 GMT -5
Have you read CT yet.The boy looked to her for emotional support for the fraction of the book when he thought she was dead.There was barley a time in that book they weren't together.She obviously cared about him enough to forget their apprentice times.If you asked me,I'd say this is pretty biased. Everything in those forums are biased one way or the others, it's literally impossible not to be.
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Post by Protractor on Feb 28, 2019 17:50:21 GMT -5
Oof,on the one hand:you agree with me.On the other:HOLLY CRAP YOU'RE RIGHT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 18:00:51 GMT -5
Oof,on the one hand:you agree with me.On the other:HOLLY CRAP YOU'RE RIGHT Thank you! I learnt from Gandi.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 28, 2019 18:20:58 GMT -5
Even as someone who greatly dislikes Breezepelt, I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that he's an abusive father. But then, we don't know anything about his relationship with his kits, anyway. In fact, Breezepelt's relationship with Crowfeather may be what motivates him to be a good father and mate that his own father ever was to him and Nightcloud. Not all abuse victims become abusers themselves. Or maybe he's like other aggressive cats: snappy towards everyone else, but kind towards his mate and kits. But again, because of how little we see of WindClan, we can't know for certain.
I think the main problem with CT is its transition. It takes place not long after DS, where Breezepelt is shown to be smug. But then right at the beginning of CT, he's remorseful. Now, this could be that reality hit him in the face, but there's nothing to suggest one way or the other, so it comes off as awkward. It also doesn't help that the book seemed to downplay Breezepelt's actions and he's made hypocritical comments in AVoS. The latter is addressed, yes, and cats like Jayfeather aren't treated as wrong for refusing to forgive him, but this doesn't change the fact that there are many times in CT where it just feels like the narrative itself expects the reader to forgive Breezepelt, or at least move on from it.
I feel like if there had at least been a better transition between DS and CT, then I'd probably be more inclined to view his redemption as believable.
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Post by Viperstrike on Feb 28, 2019 18:32:11 GMT -5
i've never liked this ship. heathertail deserves better
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 18:57:27 GMT -5
Even as someone who greatly dislikes Breezepelt, I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that he's an abusive father. But then, we don't know anything about his relationship with his kits, anyway. In fact, Breezepelt's relationship with Crowfeather may be what motivates him to be a good father and mate that his own father ever was to him and Nightcloud. Not all abuse victims become abusers themselves. Or maybe he's like other aggressive cats: snappy towards everyone else, but kind towards his mate and kits. But again, because of how little we see of WindClan, we can't know for certain. But if Breezepelt used his father mistreatment as a motive to be a better person, surely he would of done it much earlier? He allowed it to worse as a perspn and went completely overboard. Also it's too late for "Not all abuse victims become abusers themselves" because he's already stooped to even worse as an attempted mass murderer, including his silbings.
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Post by alphayamergo on Feb 28, 2019 20:37:31 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, Heathertail's relationship with Breezepelt can't be healthy because she entered it under false pretences. She thinks that he's accepted punishment and apologized for all of his crimes, when he never owned up to attacking Poppyfrost (who was pregnant!) and Jayfeather, or attacking another WindClan warrior. Don't you think she'd see him differently if she knew he was willing to murder a pregnant she-cat?
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Post by scint on Feb 28, 2019 21:59:31 GMT -5
I think there are two Breezepelts like there are two Thistleclaws... Ever since the editing team took over, they've completely screwed up Breezepelt's character. Breezepelt is a cold hearted villain. Heathertail definitely deserved better (I think there are two Heathertails too...) Did they replace those two with two completely different cats?????? See, this is why I vote the entire Warriors series gets rebooted/rewritten.
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Mar 1, 2019 17:47:30 GMT -5
I think Breezepelt and Heathertail have both changed a lot since they were apprentices. Heathertail isn't cheerful anymore and Breezepelt has toned down his aggressiveness by a large amount. I still don't see what Heathertail sees in him, but I'm chill with this ship. I don't think it's unhealthy as Heathertail has been shown to hold her own well in arguments with him and we've never once seen her showing signs of being scared or threatened by him. Yes, he was controlling as an apprentice, but Heatherpaw didn't see why she had to listen to him, and she didn't.
I wish we had more proof for either argument, but alas, we get to see so little of their relationship that is not explained by Crowfeather to the readers.
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Post by kells on Mar 3, 2019 13:08:21 GMT -5
You can't really call a relationship unhealthy without seeing it in action. While I never read Crowfeather's Trial, I do believe that it takes place before AVoS and Breezepelt gets a redemption arc crammed in there somewhere. If I recall correctly, Breezepelt either becomes mates, has kits or does both with Heathertail somewhere between OotS and AVoS. He could still be stuck in his assholishness or have changed into an actually decent person.
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