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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 21, 2019 10:45:43 GMT -5
They have to be interesting, maybe a bit eccentric, and have the inner strength to pull off whatever needs doing even with doubts and baggage, and fears. I dislike scared little whiny main characters, unless they can pull themselves out of their own heads and do what needs doing. Only exception to that would be young kits as its natural for them to be scared and immature. In that case its fun to read how a scared insecure kit can grow into a mighty warrior or medicine cat that helps his/her Clan. It makes me wonder too, with so little activity on my weeks, do people find my characters "yawn" and just don't read? Geez I hope not. . . but can't help but feel that way LOL.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 21, 2019 18:46:52 GMT -5
Your week was the same week school started up for the High Schools, Phantom. ^^ I'd blame that, actually. All my RPs, most of my chats, and a variety of other related topics were at a complete stop most of that week. I like your characters. They're fun. They often have a very 'family loyalty' to them, which makes them a really fun read since the main series doesn't often have the same strong family bound.
What I like to see in a character is strong personality lines. You know how a character is going to react in a situation because that's how they usually react. In a subsection of that, I also like slight eccentricities to them.
Related to that, are there any tropes that you like seeing in characters or do you like to see tropes broken? Should the strong character always be in a strong position? Should the healer always be a good cat, or should there be alternate morals for them? So forth?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 21, 2019 19:40:43 GMT -5
Your week was the same week school started up for the High Schools, Phantom. ^^ I'd blame that, actually. All my RPs, most of my chats, and a variety of other related topics were at a complete stop most of that week. I like your characters. They're fun. They often have a very 'family loyalty' to them, which makes them a really fun read since the main series doesn't often have the same strong family bound. What I like to see in a character is strong personality lines. You know how a character is going to react in a situation because that's how they usually react. In a subsection of that, I also like slight eccentricities to them. Related to that, are there any tropes that you like seeing in characters or do you like to see tropes broken? Should the strong character always be in a strong position? Should the healer always be a good cat, or should there be alternate morals for them? So forth? Good points! Not used to school starting so early. In my day it was never before Labor Day 1st week of Sept! And in our state I think its still true.
Yes I like characters to stay true to themselves,and a good hearted cat will always be so. Like Gentleoak. . .I cannot ever imagine him doing harm with malicious intent, ever. Sometimes good cats are forced to do bad things, but then I want to see that suffering in their souls as tey work thru it.Cats can alwssy change their life choice if they show or feel they;d better serve their clan that way. mean if one sucks as a medicine cat, might be a good idea to try one's paw at building or warrior. As for the evl cat I don't think they are born-they are made by those around them, and, i so incorrigible that thy can never find their good, they have to suffer those consequences of their own choice of heart.
The one trope I dislike is "born evil-can never learn love or good" Another is the overdo of lies. . .I always find myself "Dang it just spill the damn truth and be done with it" Dumping the truth can cause its own issues as when Gentleoak and his kin refused to lie any more about whose kits Rosepetal's were, and it did cause a huge issue at the meeting which the coyotes promptly remind them how silly it all was, considering their plight. As you can see I do like family driven tropes-where they strive to help each other, save each other or try to. Just about all my books have that theme running thru them.
In my AU , family eventually binds the Clans together stronger than ever, and they may squabble but killing each other over prey and land has become almost taboo by time we reach Phantomstar's Indistar's Smoekstar's, Troutstar's. and Nightstaar's leaderships. They negotiate far more, and band together in times of trouble, and feel no shame in calling for help.. In the current tale, an unwritten scene has Indiclaw and Phantomstrike, at a gathering, bonking Ivypool and Dovewing on their noggins for nasty bickering and aggression over past events, with Indiclaw, of all cats, saying "Mousedung, you beebrains! You're sisters! ACT like it!" LOL I haven't even gotten that far into the tale to include that tid bit. Soon I hope. I notice in the next arc, kin seems to be a bit more important-with the cross Clan ships. I'm liking that so far.
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Aug 22, 2019 1:58:47 GMT -5
Speaking of things I need to do ... Apparently we're in a discussion week mode now. XD So let's start a discussion. What do you generally think makes a good main character to read about? What traits or history makes a character interesting to you? Everything about an interesting character is really about how they interact with the world around them, for me. How they might react to crisis or a new setting, person, etc. But I particularly feel their morality and mottos are also pretty interesting parts of a character too.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 22, 2019 19:48:39 GMT -5
Very good points there Phantom! I really like all of what you said. And yes, Petri! I love watching how characters react to crisis or new things! Do you all think that a character's development can be best be shown through a situational crisis (example: a change to their environment like a flood or fire) or through interactions with other characters (example: family drama, love interest, or a mentor/apprentice situation)? Which do you like to read about more or does it depend on the character?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 23, 2019 13:19:05 GMT -5
IMO both. In a good story all kinds of things can crop up to help develop a character, and show how the character grows, and also shows the personality and other traits of the character.. And always show it. Never just state it. For example-Demonstone is now a master builder of dens barriers etc, but in the beginning of NEW BLOOD he wasn't. As time went along he slowly developed his interests in skills as a side story, in the background, while his mate developed into a firey warrior and loving queen. He overcame his insecurities with his initial injury and disablity (he could not run very fast any more) But he learned other ways to utilize his size and strength to compensate for his lack of speed. And even tho Gentleoak was destined to be a medicine cat, his path there was shown in his actions and interests, and how he reacted to situations. His gentle nature came through in his reactions and responses. I love when a story uses both a natural crisis and family or interpersonal crisises, which generally flare up because of the stress. And family banding together to protect each other against the antagonist or situation.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 23, 2019 14:54:28 GMT -5
Good points!
On another front: Should characters always have development or should there be characters who are static to show the development of other characters?
I can think of several examples of stories for the latter one, though I'm not sure if I know a fan fiction example.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 24, 2019 22:00:53 GMT -5
Character development does not necessarily mean a character changes and grows all the time, though that is often a big part of the process.
Generally developing a character is showing (not just telling) the personality traits of any given character, fleshing them out, giving them hates, loves, dreams, and how they react to things-whether with fear or delight, or hate or love, anxiety or excitement, or calm level headed thinking. Or a mix of several.
Sometimes they can be stubbornly static, especially stoic individuals who use their heads before their hearts, and the development in this case is to show the why and how this character seems unaffected by changes around them. Such a character can be stoic, always dependable, despite the chaos around him or her -calm and clear-headed, showing anger or upset very very rarely.
You can also have a character that is notoriously selfish, is a brat, has temper tantrums, no matter what happens, and the development in both is showing the why and how they are the way they are and how deep it may run. You never just say "she is selfish" or "He is stoic". You must show thru action, reaction, senses and interactions the character traits, having the reader learn over time just how extreme they may or may not be.
I guess in my rambling way the answer to the question is yes on both counts
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Post by » ѕнαdσω ⚔️ on Aug 25, 2019 21:46:34 GMT -5
Hi, I'm jumping in.
I don't think any character should be static. It doesn't really seem right. Every person on earth has their own goals, ambitions (or lack there of) and dreams. I always try to at least get those things across in small ways in my background or minor characters. They don't have to have an arc. There are times in people's lives where they don't go anywhere personally or physically. But they aren't static. They have some sort of motivation for what they are doing, even if it's as cut and dry as "I need to do this to survive."
The best way to do this is to set up scenes that pull off multiple things at once. While your main character is doing their main character thing, a background character could be doing something as simple as staring at someone with an expression of hatred or intrigue. The MC takes note, but the reader will remember later down the line when that background character acts on that emotion/action later on in the story.
If any of that makes sense, I will be happy.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 25, 2019 23:39:23 GMT -5
Both good points! It was a brief topic in my English class where we read a short story (Saving Sourdi) where the main character does not have any development and remains static as the world around her changes. While many of my classmates say her as not receiving any development, I disagreed. At this point, I would have probably enjoyed writing an essay on how her development was just much more subtle compared to the drastic changes those she loved went through. But it was a fun discussion on when having a static character could enhance the development of those around the character. It does, whether you saw the character as receiving development or not, make a rather good short story. I don't think I've seen any story before or since that succeeded in that level of character not-developing but still managed to make a good story. Since so many potluck stories are short stories, what are some of the challenges with that? What are some suggestions for world building and character development in a short story?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 26, 2019 12:09:25 GMT -5
I guess a static character can be thought of as one with no development, but, if we enter the characters mind, see her/his thoughts and emotions, and reactions, and see the subtle fleshing out of a seemingly static character, that is character development of a very stable individual who actually changes emotionally and mental very little over the story, but gets thru some very g hard situations because of it. Static in the sense that to the reader they don't change at all, meaning you never learn anything about them, or enter their thoughts or see what they see or feel, that is an underdeveloped or nondeveloped character and would be undesirable. It all depends how one sees static characters.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 26, 2019 12:47:53 GMT -5
Short stories are harder for obvious reasons however, if one really streamlines sentence structure where every word has a purpose you can do some serious world building without big info dumps. Have the character seeing the world thru their senses as they navigate the tale so info comes in slowly. Info can also be in the thoughts of the character, maybe he/she hates a certain landscape feature, or custom. Loves another. For example instead of just describing the setting let the character show it to you.
Example-instead of something like this. "The jungle was steaming, with tall trees reaching into the sky. A golden-brown tabby cat was walking down the main path through the hot forest. It was hot with little wind. Something sparkling caught her eye. The Queen's temple stood in a clearing. The stone was gold and gray, and sunlight made it glitter. The forest canopy was shading the temple. The scent of other cats was floating on the breeze and she could smell each one. Her sulleness and homesickenss went away and she started running toward it"
Maybe better is -"A golden-brown sullen and homesick tabby cat plodded down the path through the steaming, hot forest. A wisp of wind touched her whiskers, and a sparkle caught her eye. She paused, lifting her head and ears. Ahead, in a clearing set in the humid jungle of towering trees, the Queen's temple gleamed under the dappled sunlight, its gilded grey rock reaching high into the soaring forest canopy. The scents of many cats floated on the hot humid air, and she inhaled deeply, knowing all of them. Joy flooded her heart and put a bounce in her white paws as she darted toward the beloved place."
Not the best sample LOL, but for on the fly, it will do. It gives the idea of putting tidbits of info while also showing her emotional states, and getting rid of those weak verbiages like was walking, or she could smell etc. Without adding more words, or very few, the 2nd adds a bit more info about her. It is an example of the show, never tell rule I guess!
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 26, 2019 13:31:30 GMT -5
In Saving Sourdi, we do get to see the main characters thoughts and feelings. They just don't appear to change as she gets older and her reactions to situations are unshifting no matter what she has learned or experienced. I'm not sure how to describe a static character, come to think of it.
Oh I like those examples! Very nice! I can see what you mean about giving more insight into what the cat's feelings are.
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Post by ~Sapphire~ on Aug 26, 2019 17:06:13 GMT -5
There's definitely a difference between unchanging and flat - it sounds like the main character in Saving Sourdi is the first but not the second, and it's still interesting why a character doesn't change when you might expect them to. I'd assume that writing an unchanging character effectively is harder than a dynamic one, though.
Phantom's advice is good for any length of story tbh. I guess another thing is choosing the scenes that will give you the most development for plot and character, since there's often no space for downtime/transition scenes.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 26, 2019 19:00:33 GMT -5
In Saving Sourdi, we do get to see the main characters thoughts and feelings. They just don't appear to change as she gets older and her reactions to situations are unshifting no matter what she has learned or experienced. I'm not sure how to describe a static character, come to think of it. Oh I like those examples! Very nice! I can see what you mean about giving more insight into what the cat's feelings are. Was she a very selfish individual? Sometimes they never change, and that in of itself can be shocking.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 26, 2019 23:10:59 GMT -5
In Saving Sourdi, we do get to see the main characters thoughts and feelings. They just don't appear to change as she gets older and her reactions to situations are unshifting no matter what she has learned or experienced. I'm not sure how to describe a static character, come to think of it. Oh I like those examples! Very nice! I can see what you mean about giving more insight into what the cat's feelings are. Was she a very selfish individual? Sometimes they never change, and that in of itself can be shocking. Yep! Selfish and short-sighted!
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 26, 2019 23:11:57 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on how to title your stories? Do you enjoy titling a story one way over another?
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Post by Maplestone360 on Aug 27, 2019 6:26:28 GMT -5
I literally can't think of an answer for that one because sometimes the title immediately pops into my head and sometimes I can't think of one for the life of me. Oops
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 27, 2019 14:32:55 GMT -5
Titles can be exasperating LOL Sometimes they come immediately, sometimes it takes a lot of scribbled choices before one clicks. For example NEW BLOOD Born of Smoke and Fire was originally Kyestorm's Promise. The file is still named that LOL For one of my novels, about a young boy's life that ran from riches to rags to riches in my alien scifi, I think I worked it under a zillion bleh titles before Curse of Koris finally popped into my head. Sometimes I just keep it simple like the story about my 100 year old Spruce tree-Old Gent. That was it. LOL For my 3rd book in the scifi series the title, Eyes in the Dark, popped into my head early and stuck all these years. With the New Blood spin offs, sometimes the title came right to me, like Sabotage , but for Thief in Morning Light I went thru several versions before that one. It is weird how sometimes a title pops up immediately with the story idea and sometimes does not until long after the 1st and 2nd drafts are done! With the Potluck ta;es the 1st one fit so well LOL Potluck-about Gentleoak and his precious pots. Others were not so easy. Breaking the Rules I mulled around several versions of that too. NEW BLOOD -TRAPPED took a while too as I had other such titles as Blizzard, or Sudden Storm, and a few clunkers I don't remember. Titles can be so subjective too but I always like to have something in them that is relevant to the story. Worse thing I hate are titles that have horse, dragon, unicorn, cat, etc in them and they have NOTHING to do with the implied subject.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 27, 2019 14:36:44 GMT -5
Was she a very selfish individual? Sometimes they never change, and that in of itself can be shocking. Yep! Selfish and short-sighted! I guess it was a good story to show how some people can be that way, and nothing ever changes their way. That some people are hopelessly stuck in whatever it is that makes them selfish or stubborn, or any other unchanging way. On the opposite end of that are people who are strong, calm, and always help others no matter what is going on around them even if their own lives are literally falling apart.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 27, 2019 16:42:17 GMT -5
It took me two years to come up with the title for my personal story "Will to Live". I must have gone through over a dozen titles before I found out that making puns off the character's name was funny. "Will to Live" and "Last Will and Testament" are the only ones who thus far follow that trend. I'm still working on what the third should be. A lot of the times, I know what theme the title should be, but getting the words to work right is another matter. So throughout my naming process for Will to Live I knew I wanted to focus on the motivations of the main character (Will), but also hint at what the whole overarching story was about. The same goes for my prequel series "Double Mirror". I wanted the theme to be about double meanings and fire, so that's what the naming system follows.
For "Mortality", the title has never really settled right for me. Even now, so many years later. The original title also didn't work (A New Life). But it is what it is.
Where There's Smoke there is Fire popped into my mind when I was writing "Where There is Smoke" because it thought it was an interesting callback to the saying and told a story. Because Firestar died, Smokepaw exists, and now he has to be the one to step up and work for peace.
"Sky of Shattered Stars" just ... happened as a name. I had a theme and the title came effortlessly. The original title before the rewrite was Falling Stars. So I knew 'stars' would be in the title again so when I thought about the meaning behind the book it was pretty easy. "The Butterfly Effect" was just what came up when I thought back to Greebo's works and how the butterfly was in the Tom Freedmen series. Then I remembered a sentence in Discworld (the series both Greebo's story and mine are based off of) about how a butterfly flapping its wings in a jungle can cause a storm on the other side of the world. The term 'Butterfly Effect' just seemed very perfect for a second book where everything comes to a head.
So for me, as a summary, I mostly start with the theme and heart of the book and if I'm struggling with a title to reflect that, then I think what title can fit it.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 28, 2019 12:25:13 GMT -5
It is funny how that seems to happen to all of us. Titles can come immediately or take their sweet time.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 28, 2019 15:12:22 GMT -5
I know. I didn't know it wasn't just me who did it that way.
Anything any of you want to discuss?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 28, 2019 21:06:32 GMT -5
Hmmm, well since I have just run into this dilemna when it comes to epic length books-if you are going to go over 900 pagaes do you let it stay so or split it My issue is it is the 3rd book in the series. Book I is 700 pages, and book II is 600+, and my estimation is Book III is pushing 600 pages in the 1st draft.. . .yikes. If it stays within the 600-700 pages I think it will be I won't split but. . .what if it goes to 900-1000????????? I'd have o dig up a new but related title, and come up with a cover. . .I know I am a long way from the latter but I had no idea it was grtting so epicly long LOL I did check later chapter rough drafts and one was redundant-in the wrong place and I canned it, but I really hate the idea of splitting it!
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 29, 2019 11:10:26 GMT -5
I had that problem once. I waited until I finished the first draft, because it turned out what I wanted to happen came together a lot quicker. Going a hundred pages over your goal shouldn't be too bad.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 29, 2019 14:14:27 GMT -5
I had that problem once. I waited until I finished the first draft, because it turned out what I wanted to happen came together a lot quicker. Going a hundred pages over your goal shouldn't be too bad. I actually looked at the chapters and realized one was redundant, and the story is looking like its winding up last in the last few chapters that may actually be combined. LOL I started freaking out for nothing I think, but you're right if it goes over 700 pages to even 800 it would still be in line with the other two.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Aug 29, 2019 20:53:09 GMT -5
Yep! Glad you figured it out though!
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 17, 2019 14:23:13 GMT -5
Yep! Glad you figured it out though! Me, too! I was giving myself a case of nerves LOL
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Sept 18, 2019 0:20:25 GMT -5
So what would all my fine friends like to do for this month? Do we wanna do the weekly feature or do we want to try something new, or ... etc?
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Post by ~Sapphire~ on Sept 19, 2019 12:14:33 GMT -5
Discussion/something new would work best for me, since because of starting uni I can't commit to writing a feature this month. But if there are enough other people to do the feature I'd be happy to cheerlead!
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