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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 19, 2019 14:13:05 GMT -5
Sure thing!
Huuuum. Others can purpose discussion questions, but I'll give a whirl.
What makes a good villain? Do you like writing about pure evil villains or do you like faceted villains with back stories? Or do you like writing characters who AREN'T villains?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 19, 2019 15:40:41 GMT -5
I'm happy with whatever is decided. Rising Stars is still being written so I could post here from time to time when parts are finished. It is still a WIP!
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 19, 2019 15:54:59 GMT -5
Sure thing! Huuuum. Others can purpose discussion questions, but I'll give a whirl. What makes a good villain? Do you like writing about pure evil villains or do you like faceted villains with back stories? Or do you like writing characters who AREN'T villains? Good question! Since I have a thing against stupid bad behavior, I hate when villains win or succeed in hurting others. I enjoy writing their characters but, if I have a villain that is incorrigible he/she dies . . . . LOL. In one of my short stories the villian that hurts the main character is blasted by the main characters matte. He doesn't win. Another, is ousted and beaten by his stepson. In another the evil alien captors are blown to bits by rescuers. (all these are fantasy with nonhuman main characters) In NEW BLOOD I used Harespring as a villain but since he redeemed himself, he lived. Had Tigerclaw/star been around in the NEW BLOOD universe, he'd have never ever gotten away with a lot that he did. Demonstone or Kyestorm would have kicked his butt from the lake to across the Great waters. He might have survived but would have had very addled rattled brains. I guess I love punishing villans!
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 21, 2019 0:05:03 GMT -5
I'm cool if you do that Phantom! Pfffft. One sec, I'll write up a different post about my villains.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 21, 2019 0:18:21 GMT -5
So, for me, I rarely write actual villains. In fact, I struggle a lot with writing pure evil ones in particular.
In only two cases have I ever written pure evil villains and that would be in my fic Where There's Smoke (where I wrote using Tigerstar) and in another OTW fic where I have the vampire Bell. Their motivations are power and control and basically nothing more nuanced than that. I like nuanced. I like grey characters with grey morals. I also suppose Sky of Shattered Stars has Wickedheart, who's like a force of nature rather than 'good' or 'bad'.
Then I have characters who are on the grey moral spectrum. I have several characters where what they fight against is themselves. My current personal story with Will C. Morgen is like that.
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Sept 21, 2019 3:22:52 GMT -5
I like writing villains with some ‘lawful evil’ connotations. I won’t give away too much because Triumvirate is... 7 pages in... but the villain is, technically speaking, a lawful evil character.
I think a good villain can be taken many ways. One can like how the villain executes the plans. I liked how Darktail executed his in Hawkwing’s SE - infiltration is one of my favorite trope(?)s. I also like the Disney-archetype villains for... absolutely no reason.
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Post by Maplestone360 on Sept 21, 2019 7:22:05 GMT -5
So, for me, I rarely write actual villains. In fact, I struggle a lot with writing pure evil ones in particular. In only two cases have I ever written pure evil villains and that would be in my fic Where There's Smoke (where I wrote using Tigerstar) and in another OTW fic where I have the vampire Bell. Their motivations are power and control and basically nothing more nuanced than that. I like nuanced. I like grey characters with grey morals. I also suppose Sky of Shattered Stars has Wickedheart, who's like a force of nature rather than 'good' or 'bad'. Then I have characters who are on the grey moral spectrum. I have several characters where what they fight against is themselves. My current personal story with Will C. Morgen is like that. I agree with you I that I like gray, complex villains more than those that are evil just because. It makes them more interesting, imo. Sure, you can have a villain that's "pure evil," but at least let them have a reason why. You know? Some of my favorite villains are the ones where they and the protagonist are both so gray that you start second guessing who to root for. XD
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 21, 2019 11:10:59 GMT -5
Still doing sign-ups? I'll go again if you are. 🍁Searipple101🍁I'll take advice, criticism, and whatever you enjoy about the story, please.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 21, 2019 14:46:33 GMT -5
I'm cool if you do that Phantom! Pfffft. One sec, I'll write up a different post about my villains. What can I do? Have Kyestorm go kick his butt? LOL I'd love to do that. . . .scare him silly, rattle his brains and make him a drooling idiot. But she and Demonstone would have to go back in time somehow. . .
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 22, 2019 0:32:19 GMT -5
All very good points! What are opinions about the trope 'My Parents' Crimes are My Crimes'? Annoying? Not annoying?
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 22, 2019 0:32:54 GMT -5
Still doing sign-ups? I'll go again if you are. 🍁Searipple101🍁 I'll take advice, criticism, and whatever you enjoy about the story, please. Sure thing! You want your week to start now?
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 22, 2019 0:34:24 GMT -5
I'm cool if you do that Phantom! Pfffft. One sec, I'll write up a different post about my villains. What can I do? Have Kyestorm go kick his butt? LOL I'd love to do that. . . .scare him silly, rattle his brains and make him a drooling idiot. But she and Demonstone would have to go back in time somehow. . .
Pfft. Yes, I guess that's an option. XD "What you can do" was about posting your story here when it updates and we'll go cheer for it.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 22, 2019 15:10:46 GMT -5
What can I do? Have Kyestorm go kick his butt? LOL I'd love to do that. . . .scare him silly, rattle his brains and make him a drooling idiot. But she and Demonstone would have to go back in time somehow. . .
Pfft. Yes, I guess that's an option. XD "What you can do" was about posting your story here when it updates and we'll go cheer for it. LOL Ty but wow did I have a senior moment or what?
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 22, 2019 19:32:01 GMT -5
mintedstar/fur🦇 That was rather unexpected to get my week so soon, but sure! I have been working on my next story for after Death Wish is finished, and I have a couple chapters already. I can post the first chapter, artwork, and all that for this. It doesn't matter if it's a little early. Edit: Here's the link to the new story! wcrpforums.com/thread/72470/which-plagues-fan-fic-potluck
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 24, 2019 0:21:02 GMT -5
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 24, 2019 0:22:19 GMT -5
mintedstar/fur🦇 That was rather unexpected to get my week so soon, but sure! I have been working on my next story for after Death Wish is finished, and I have a couple chapters already. I can post the first chapter, artwork, and all that for this. It doesn't matter if it's a little early. Edit: Here's the link to the new story! wcrpforums.com/thread/72470/which-plagues-fan-fic-potluck You and Phantom were the only sign ups, so that's why. ^^ Oooo! Looking forward to checking it out!
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Sept 24, 2019 8:06:00 GMT -5
I’ll sign up for next month - mid-terms are hectic right now!
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 24, 2019 11:13:14 GMT -5
I lucked out not having midterms. o.o
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Sept 25, 2019 8:46:24 GMT -5
mintedstar/fur🦇 - would you mind if I posted a discussion question? I was considering this after reading a certain fic concerning FireBlue that was badly executed.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 25, 2019 11:53:04 GMT -5
PLEASE! Please anyone who wants to post a question! Please do!
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 25, 2019 15:25:41 GMT -5
mintedstar/fur🦇 - would you mind if I posted a discussion question? I was considering this after reading a certain fic concerning FireBlue that was badly executed. I'm interested in this discussion possibility. Is the fic on this forum?
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Sept 26, 2019 3:30:14 GMT -5
phantomstar57 - No, it’s on FFN ^^ So what makes an alternate universe a ‘good’ alternate universe? Other than the writing, I mean. And what makes another AU bad?
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Post by ~Sapphire~ on Sept 26, 2019 12:53:48 GMT -5
Yes, more stories! Everyone check out Sea's, it's really good c:
For the discussion... I prefer canon divergence aus that make significant enough changes to canon that the whole story changes, rather than just the details. For example, "What if Jayfeather was a girl?" doesn't really interest me as an au, while "What if Jayfeather 'died' instead of Hollyleaf?" does. Although that's more of a preference rather than 'good' or 'bad' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 26, 2019 14:31:12 GMT -5
phantomstar57 - No, it’s on FFN ^^ So what makes an alternate universe a ‘good’ alternate universe? Other than the writing, I mean. And what makes another AU bad? The research into characters if you use canon too, and in both the world building so the events are believable. For example in NEW BLOOD Kye teaches the clan to catch venison, and I researched deer and found a couple of species small enough that a Maine Coon could take them down if he/she so chose, along with the help of clanmates. She had experience with her twolegs with deer meat, and so broke open that box during a very cold snowy leaf bare. As a result her Clan waxed fat and healthy, ready to tackle what the future planned for them. The timelines must make sense, even if magic or fantasy is involved. And when dealing with Warriors you want to be true to the nature of the books since the fic is based on them. In mine, I stuck very close to canon character. But did grow a few of them further but not outside what they may have become. Then added events driven by my OCs that altered events. BUT I stuck to the main timeliines in huge events like natural disasters and such, and who eventually dies. In an AU without without canon characters, he worst thing you can do IMO is go off the rails (unless its a spoof) and have things occur that cats would never do in a million seasons, and have them following some plotline that forgets the hard life they live, where they worry more over who is with who that what could be threatening their very lives. The former can be important, esp if a code is broken, but if its just silly HS type stuff in warrior form-Oh gods, no please. Or having a villein that is so evil with no redeeming social value who wins and kills. Nope. That type should DIE and sooner rather than later IMO. A villain should be more complex. I could go on but this is a start I guess LOL
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 26, 2019 14:42:44 GMT -5
Yes, more stories! Everyone check out Sea's, it's really good c: For the discussion... I prefer canon divergence aus that make significant enough changes to canon that the whole story changes, rather than just the details. For example, "What if Jayfeather was a girl?" doesn't really interest me as an au, while "What if Jayfeather 'died' instead of Hollyleaf?" does. Although that's more of a preference rather than 'good' or 'bad' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I agree! I did the what if Maine Coons ended up in the Clans, because as i read the books too many times I thought "dang they need a few huge Coonies in their ranks", and oh boy did I have fun with that! Many things changed, because in the canon, I hated the idea of ShadowClan being overun by Darktails group. Always felt that was just a long drawn out "danger" that they should have handled and not cowed away, and in NEW BLOOD Kyestorm and her kits take care of that problem before its starts so, things changed a lot! That wimped out scenario with the Clans never occurred and Darktail and his t rogues killed or driven off when Alderheart (paw att eh time) recognized them as dangerous and that is all Kyestorm had to know. Boom done. And on to the next problem. . . I love these kinds of stories and applaud those that are well done!
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 26, 2019 15:29:50 GMT -5
I consider that a definition of AU. Alternate Reality. Alternate Reality implies that it is somehow connected to the 'parent' reality. The reader is expected to remember the original work and think about how the new reality is different. Surprisingly, for me, 'good writing' usually takes up far more of my opinion than anything about the AU confusion. A writer, if they plan out the details of an AU, can make very crazy ideas work out.
AUs are still expected to follow classic outlines. Characters are allowed to act a little out of their canon personalities, but often that's just writing - writers can't always write just same how 'canon' is. But any major shifts in in how a character acts I expect to be backed up with something happening within the characters life (Example: Leafpool suddenly - out of the blue - becoming a mass-murderer would have me dropping the AU. If the author can give me at least plausible, well-developed steps for why and how Leafpool got to this point I might buy it.)
I don't mind if only certain details are changed (Gender swap, a shift in relationships, a minor character lives) and I don't mind fixed points staying the same (the only middle ground example I've seen of this would be New Blood, but I like how that worked), or like Sapphire said and everything drastically shifts. Neither of them really bother me, it's the writing which plays a roll.
What I find a bad AU can be is always more of a writing mechanics issue. The plot shift can be underdeveloped and then you loose me. Okay ... so Tallstar somehow gained another set of nine lives ... but you aren't properly telling cause and effect. How do the other leaders react to it? StarClan? How does he? How did he even get the extra lives to begin with? I need the writer to give me a reason I can believe - uphold it - give me pros and cons, and tell me a story in a way that lets me suspend what I know about the rules of Warriors. Characters who act drastically out of character for no visible reason cause me to sigh. Sometimes (I read a HP AU like this), I can live with the drastically out of character characters IF the story is entertaining and I can remove my opinion of the original series from that of the AU. Effectively, I can no longer consider it an AU. I have to think of it as new characters who just happen to have the names of characters I know of from a certain fandom I like. The character act and react like well-developed characters but they are not THE characters that they are named from.
So, okay, I'll us FireBlue. I haven't read it, but let me actually show you how to make it work (I figured it out, ha ha. It's just ... not something I would write.) 1) Blue and Fire both have to have the same personalities. 2) The writer would now have to set up a probably very lengthy plot. They would have to lay out ground work for a concept that readers of the Warrior books might not readily accept and they would have to be a good writer. 3) They would have to deal with fall-out within the series. It would be a relationship in the forefront of the scene and the age gap is something which is either concerning or unusual to many readers. In the story, they would need to address this or they would need to heavily develop the idea that this age gap is not a concern within the world of warriors (a careful study of the books do prove that minor characters with a similar age gap have existed.) 4) This would take several books to develop any sort of relationship, more to ease the readers into the idea rather more than any sort of in-universe reason. Relationship would have to be very, very, veeeeeeery slow burn, building from the ground up. It probably would be very ill-advised to do any of this build-up while Fire is an apprentice. 5) I said in point 1 that the characters would have to have the same personality. This is still important, because otherwise it just feels like you're slapping two names onto characters who are nothing like the names they wear. Considering the plot is very ... unusual ... for the personalities to still work it becomes far more tricky to work well. Crack ships tend to pair characters who at least had similar chemistry, but what makes this a very hard AU to work with is that the development it takes to tilt the personalities is far larger of a skill than I have seen. It would have to have personality shaped through plot action - perhaps taking place during at least 2 books to get the personality through enough development and interaction to result in chemistry that the reader will recognize. This takes patience, but truly just needs a competent writer to get this far. The part where you need a good writer is the fact that you still need enough of Fire's and Blue's original (canon) reactions, morals, and choice making skills that the reader will still connect enough of it back to the parent work but suspend enough of their belief in it (backed by the AT LEAST 2 books and a half of information up to this point) to still see this as an AU. 6) I'd be impressed if anyone put this much effort into this. There's a lot of stigma around the subject, so dealing with that is a whole bucket of worms which makes the chemistry that crackship needs feel even less there than it might be with, say, Dustpelt. Who should feel just as distantly impossible, but because the ages at least mostly match up, it is easier for the current society to work out chemistry. Even still ... I have seen and read AUs that succeed in doing amazing things with wild odds against them. The core fact is emotions behind an AU. The writer has to lead the reader in easy, and then make them want to stay. Good writing is ... surprisingly really helpful with that. All AUs can look horrible, but execution can still be achieved. 7) About six zillion people will disagree with me and say this doesn't work. The more stigma a topic has the harder it will likely be to succeed with the readers, particularly if they are raised to disagree with it. But it may work for a lot of people, since what is considered a 'good story' is ultimately very subjective.
So basically when I read an AU, I expect to see: - Good writing to try and emulate the style of writing that canon has OR an original way of variation from it. - Characters ONLY act out of canon set personalities if the steps to this variation are at least plausibly executed. - All types are okay by me. - When in doubt, develop it more.
tl:dr: Bad AUs are when the AU itself is 'Yes, but what if X character had a completely DIFFERENT personality for no apparent reason'. Even very unusual or uncommon AUs can still be 'good' (subjectively good) if the changes in plot or personality are both given enough development.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 26, 2019 15:34:49 GMT -5
Everyone else: Oh, and the plot has to follow a logical course and/or have to follow major things in the books.
Me: CHARACTERS oh shoot, forgot plot was a thing.
My thing was already long enough.
I'll just say that I like writers who follow major events and if something in the canon plot changes, you have to give reasons, cause, and affects. Otherwise, I'm not buying it.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 26, 2019 16:14:40 GMT -5
Now I'm curious. What is the main gist of the FireBlue story? I know absolutely nothing about it.
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Sept 27, 2019 2:55:32 GMT -5
Now I'm curious. What is the main gist of the FireBlue story? I know absolutely nothing about it. The base of it is the ship FireBlue, and DustSand is a thing as well (note that the author made no explanation for how these happened, but amended that this will be explained with later chapters when I pointed this out by a review). Silverstream and Graystripe have broken up and Graystripe has returned to ThunderClan, while Silverstream has taken Blackclaw as a new mate and from what I can tell, is leading some kind of fight against ThunderClan. (And I also pointed out that Blackclaw is canonically Mistyfoot’s mate in a review at which point the author also amended this by putting a Mistyfoot POV, portraying her as heartbroken - which to be fair, is something that would happen if your mate is suddenly snatched up by your cousin.) Stormpaw and Featherpaw have joined ThunderClan, Yellowfang somehow didn’t die in the wildfire, and I have no idea where Speckletail and Snowkit are because they aren’t in the allegiances. In short: pretty wild, not a lot of cohesive storylines. (I may have been a little nitpicky in reviewing? To be honest I like AUs where the authors have done some research concerning what they’re writing about. Like ever since I chose to write the Jumpstar AU and ThunderClan!Stonefur AU, I’ve been doing too much research on RiverClan and ShadowClan)
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 27, 2019 14:08:46 GMT -5
@.@ Geeeeee that's wild. Everything is ... everywhere.
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