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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 9:10:51 GMT -5
Personally I don't think he does, and imo he's had several chances, but what do you guys think?
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Post by streamflower on Jun 4, 2018 10:04:29 GMT -5
The cat tried to murder a pregnant lady and the equivalent of a doctor-priest on holy ground (among other things). Why? Because daddy issues.
No, he doesn't deserve a second chance, and he certainly doesn't deserve Heathertail.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 4, 2018 11:16:21 GMT -5
Again. If Blackstar and Hollyleaf got second chances and redeemed themselves after their actions, then Breezepelt does too. This is really a perspective and opinion matter. If done right, I think anyone can be redeemed if they truly want to. Shrug.
I guess we'll see. Until I get an attempt or more focus on Breezepelt I'm not going to deny him a chance. I want a Breezepelt redemption so bad, and I really enjoy BreezeHeather if they make eachother happy.
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Post by Showers on Jun 4, 2018 11:21:55 GMT -5
I don't like Breezepelt but I think he should have a second chance. it's not like he's really done anything except being an arrogant *****boy since the great battle.
His "redemption" will probably be handled poorly, much like Needletail and Clear Sky's.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 4, 2018 12:07:19 GMT -5
I don't like Breezepelt but I think he should have a second chance. it's not like he's really done anything except being an arrogant *****boy since the great battle. His "redemption" will probably be handled poorly, much like Needletail and Clear Sky's. That's what I'm afraid of, especially since Crowfeather has the POV :/ It'll probably just be a book about how Crowfeather did nothing wrong and how he gets a free pass to neglect his son because he's "misunderstood". They'll make Breezepelt the only bad cat here when alot of the blame really does fall on Crowfeather. Not all of it, but part of it for sure. I just...ugh.
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Post by Lightflame on Jun 4, 2018 13:37:59 GMT -5
Not at all. It's more like a fourth or fifth chance at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 13:58:25 GMT -5
breezepelt should have been exiled a long time ago tbh
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 15:26:40 GMT -5
No. He doesn't deserve to be a WindClan warrior.
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Post by Rainshadow on Jun 4, 2018 15:29:03 GMT -5
No, he doesn't. He should have been banned from the lake territories after the Great Battle.
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Post by โ
Maplefrostโ
on Jun 4, 2018 20:52:18 GMT -5
A lot of characters don't deserve chances but are given it anyways, and sometimes it turns out alright. Personally, I don't care whether he gets another chance or not, but I do want to see him as his own character without his father's crappy influence suffocating his development.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 4, 2018 21:08:25 GMT -5
A lot of characters don't deserve chances but are given it anyways, and sometimes it turns out alright. Personally, I don't care whether he gets another chance or not, but I do want to see him as his own character without his father's crappy influence suffocating his development. p r e a c hhhh especially that last parttt
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 5, 2018 0:11:58 GMT -5
On the one hand, he absolutely doesn't deserve it. On the other, you could make a good plot out of that. The problem is that to make a good plot would require ticking off both of his fans, both the type that love the bad boy Breezepelt and the type that think it was all Crowfeather's fault. Breezepelt would have to have true introspection and feelings of remorse, which isn't a very bad boy thing to do yet also places the blame upon his own shoulders, which the Breezepelt defense squad doesn't like.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 5, 2018 6:43:41 GMT -5
On the one hand, he absolutely doesn't deserve it. On the other, you could make a good plot out of that. The problem is that to make a good plot would require ticking off both of his fans, both the type that love the bad boy Breezepelt and the type that think it was all Crowfeather's fault. Breezepelt would have to have true introspection and feelings of remorse, which isn't a very bad boy thing to do yet also places the blame upon his own shoulders, which the Breezepelt defense squad doesn't like. I'd be perfectly fine with that. And I'm a Breezepelt redemption supporter. If he takes initiative and grows to regret his actions and take his due blame, the better for him! I just want to see what we'll get either way with Crowfeather's SE.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Jun 5, 2018 20:17:14 GMT -5
Hell to the no!
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Post by Smokyyy on Jun 6, 2018 21:26:36 GMT -5
Yessss I want him to have one soooooo bad. Hopefully we'll see that in CT
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Post by anxi0us on Jun 7, 2018 6:01:53 GMT -5
Hm, Don't know, I always guessed he was "evil" because he felt neglected by Crowfeather and Nightcloud, Sorry, I don't usually type long posts, but anyways, Yeah, I think he deserves a second chance, Doesn't everyone?
Well, Except for *Cough* Needletail *Cough*
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Post by ivypool92287 on Jun 9, 2018 3:35:01 GMT -5
I don't think Blackstar and Hollyleaf tried to kill a pregnant queen and a med cat on sacred ground.
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Post by Fernstep on Jun 9, 2018 3:50:07 GMT -5
Yeah, there's... there's a pretty sizeable gray area between "attempting to randomly murder people out of sheer spite and/or having betrayed everyone you know to a bunch of evil ghosts" and being a flawless, utterly morally perfect person. The fact that Blackstar and Hollyleaf killed some people at some point and still got into StarClan doesn't automatically mean that Breezepelt, who hasn't killed anyone, can't possibly be worse than them. Morality does not work like that. It's not black and white.
Blackstar killed Rosetail in battle. Yes, the warrior code says battle kills are to be avoided, but it still happens an awful lot, and it's usually not treated as an automatic go-straight-to-cat-hell card. Yes, she was an elder, and yes, ShadowClan was attacking the ThunderClan camp. I'm pretty sure no one's ever said that Blackstar was incapable of sin, and even when he straightened out his act and became leader, there was always an undercurrent of rule-by-fear to his reign. It is, in my opinion, part of why Rowanstar couldn't hold ShadowClan together as well as Blackstar could: Rowanstar's leadership abilities weren't harshly groomed under the fires of Brokenstar and Tigerstar's regimes. I defend Blackstar as a character not because he's a "good person", but because his moral nuance makes him interesting to me. I believe his crimes didn't make him deserving of the Dark Forest because of the circumstances under which they were committed. They're still crimes, but being absolutist about things like this just is not reasonable. Breezepelt, on the other hand, had no justification for his behavior, no reasons to be in those battles in the first place, and no sympathetic motivation to fall back on. His dad was a jerk, we get it. That doesn't come close to excusing several attempted murders of his own free will.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jun 9, 2018 4:18:46 GMT -5
Breezepelt crossed the line when he tried to kill Poppyfrost. I don't care about his relationship with Crowfeather, he's still his own cat. There's a reason why I'm harsher on him than I am on other cats who did bad things; he didn't even seem to regret anything. Onestar should've just exiled him. His hypocritical comments don't make things any better, either.
But who knows, maybe we'll see a different side to him in CT, and what we've seen in AVoS is just a mask he puts on when around the other Clans. I doubt it, but I guess we'll see.
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Post by olivepatch on Jun 9, 2018 6:07:11 GMT -5
no. the dude tried to kill a pregnant lady AND a blind medicine cat. garbage
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 6:55:34 GMT -5
I'd say Crowfeather's treatment of Breezepelt is overexaggerated. He wasn't abusive or neglectful, more strict and overly distance. However he's not the only questionable one; Breezepaw was a rude/spoiled brat, that snapped out at everyone unfairly, who often got into trouble. Then Nightcloud was overbearing, constantly clinging onto Crowfeather and smothering Breezepaw. With all three constantly bickering. Back then, the whole family was just as bad as each other.
But Breezepelt is by far the worst of them by now, turning to murder/violence when none was used against him. And his existence with lackluster parents can not be used as an excuse for his crimes, considering he never laid a claw on those who wronged him.
Instead, he went after his innocent half-siblings, who were just as big as victims as he was, if not more so. Trying to kill a Blind Medicine cat, trying to kill Lionblaze multiple times and celebrating Hollyleaf's death. And by far the worst one, trying to kill a pregnant Poppyfrost, for no reason, other then she happened to be there.
Breezepelt is by far, much worse then any of the other Dark Forest trainees, with no shame in what he did. He can redeem himself sure, but he doesn't deserve to get off scot-free. He should get exiled and try to help the Clans as a rouge.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2018 7:18:51 GMT -5
I don't think Blackstar and Hollyleaf tried to kill a pregnant queen andย a med cat on sacred ground. Well Blackstar certainly murdered an elder trying to protect kits and was easily aiming to steal said kits when his clan invaded another clan, breaking multiple codes. Oh, and then he slaughtered a clan deputy who was held prisoner and starved and was defending apprentices. You know, while showing literally no remorse or apology after the fact. So...was he really "forced"? Or was he just as manipulated and aggressive as Breezepelt was? I'm not letting him get off scott free, sorry. And Hollyleaf did try to kill a medicine cat. Literally, her own mother, by cornering her in her own den and aiming to force her to swallow poison. But it's all okay if she regrets it later, right? And if Breezepelt is shown to regret his actions when we get a more accurate and full POV from him? Will we still deny him a chance at redemption? Seems kind of unfair.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2018 7:25:35 GMT -5
Yeah, there's... there's a pretty sizeable gray area between "attempting to randomly murder people out of sheer spite and/or having betrayed everyone you know to a bunch of evil ghosts" and being a flawless, utterly morally perfect person. The fact that Blackstar and Hollyleaf killed some people at some point and still got into StarClan doesn't automatically mean that Breezepelt, who hasn't killed anyone, can't possibly be worse than them. Morality does not work like that. It's not black and white. Blackstar killed Rosetail in battle. Yes, the warrior code says battle kills are to be avoided, but it still happens an awful lot, and it's usually not treated as an automatic go-straight-to-cat-hell card. Yes, she was an elder, and yes, ShadowClan was attacking the ThunderClan camp. I'm pretty sure no one's ever said that Blackstar was incapable of sin, and even when he straightened out his act and became leader, there was always an undercurrent of rule-by-fear to his reign. It is, in my opinion, part of why Rowanstar couldn't hold ShadowClan together as well as Blackstar could: Rowanstar's leadership abilities weren't harshly groomed under the fires of Brokenstar and Tigerstar's regimes. I defend Blackstar as a character not because he's a "good person", but because his moral nuance makes him interesting to me. I believe his crimes didn't make him deserving of the Dark Forest because of the circumstances under which they were committed. They're still crimes, but being absolutist about things like this just is not reasonable. Breezepelt, on the other hand, had no justification for his behavior, no reasons to be in those battles in the first place, and no sympathetic motivation to fall back on. His dad was a jerk, we get it. That doesn't come close to excusing several attempted murders of his own free will. That's not my point. My point here is, these two cats are redeemed because they were given time, focus and a chance to redeem themselves. Windclan and Breezepelt hardly get any focus. We hardly see Breezepelt's true thoughts and life in Windclan besides Crowfeather literally being a horrible father and Breezepelt being in angry border squabbles. I'm not asking for Breezepelt's actions to be excused, because they're not. I'm asking that we give him the same chance and focus that we've given two other cats that have done just as bad if not worse actions. And if Breezepelt remains the same and is not redeemed, then that'w how it is and I'll get over it. But if he is redeemed, then good. I want to see that. I want to see why Heathertail accepted him and raised a family with him. I want to see if anything is better between him and his father. I want to see why Onestar allowed him to stay when clearly he is not a leader who screams forgiveness and apology. I want to see if they will give him the same chance they gave Blackstar and Hollyleaf. That's it. As you said, Blackstar is not free of sin. Well, neither is Breezepelt, right? It doesn't mean he can't be redeemed, or at least attempted to be. I just want to see if they can do it well.
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Post by briarfrost on Jun 9, 2018 9:28:46 GMT -5
I also think people are too quick to write off how terrible a dad Crowfeather really is. It's not just fan interpretation; when all three of the PoT protagonists comments on him being horrible, it's kinda hammering in that he is. Like 'stern' would be scolding your son when he does things wrong, but also guiding him to do right. The kind of dad you groan about because he's super strict, but know he has your best interests at heart. Constantly doubting your son's ability to do stuff (like a simple barrier check), never showing pride when he does things right (the pigeon in Eclipse), being overall unenthusiastic about his presence (saying "well I GUESS he has to come"), and putting him down instead of trying to explain ("you'll never understand loyalty", or how about just saying WHY you should help again)? That's not stern, that's outright negligent of his job as a father and role model. Abusive at worst.
To say nothing of how the DF is manipulative, grooming, and abusive for everyone who gets pulled in (not just Breezepelt--Hawkfrost first got Ivypaw by taking advantage of her desire for recognition, and Blossomfall and Antpelt were there because the DF made them feel more loved than their own Clanmates did).
Now, I'm not saying any of this justifies his crime, because it doesn't. But considering where he came from, it's not hard to see why he ended up so unstable, and...up there are about three posts saying "well Hollyleaf and Blackstar didn't do this". And that just grinds my goat because reducing a character to just one trait or action is never a good thing. You miss out on all the nuances. "Sure, Hollyleaf never tried to kill a pregnant queen. Breezepelt never tried to murder his own mother. Bing-bing, that automatically makes him better than her." No. You can't do stuff like that. Hollyleaf isn't a morally better cat because of what she didn't do, but because of what she did, and Breezepelt isn't made of one crime.
And another thing to consider: Hollyleaf and Blackstar have way more screentime. Blackstar was around for like four series, and as a Clan leader, got a lot of attention. Hollyleaf was a POV character. We got to see their redemptions play out. Breezepelt's shown up like twice since OoTS, and in small roles. We have no idea if he feels remorse or if/how he tried to redeem himself--Onestar had to keep him around for a reason, right? Maybe he's not redeemed. Maybe he is and just keeps up being a jerk to the other Clans as a facade. I expect we'll see more in CT since that bridges OotS and AVoS. If he's not redeemed there, that answers our questions. If he is, that also answers them.
And finally, I think something this topic gets wrong is that in redemption stories, the redeem-ee doesn't deserve a second chance. At the end of PoT, I would have said Hollyleaf didn't deserve to be redeemed, or after TPB, that Blackstar didn't. What made me believe they deserved to be redeemed was the fact they tried. Redemption is something you earn, not something you have set up nice and easy for you. Breezepelt, if he went for it, would have a hard road ahead of him--not just his crimes, but his entire unstable mindset would need to be overcome--and that's something that'd be interesting to read for me.
So tl;dr, yes, I do think we should see a redemption story for him, because it has a lot of potential and fills out "why is he still here" in AVoS?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 10:00:42 GMT -5
And finally, I think something this topic gets wrong is that in redemption stories, the redeem-ee doesn't deserve a second chance. At the end of PoT, I would have said Hollyleaf didn't deserve to be redeemed, or after TPB, that Blackstar didn't. What made me believe they deserved to be redeemed was the fact they tried. Redemption is something you earn, not something you have set up nice and easy for you. Breezepelt, if he went for it, would have a hard road ahead of him--not just his crimes, but his entire unstable mindset would need to be overcome--and that's something that'd be interesting to read for me. So tl;dr, yes, I do think we should see a redemption story for him, because it has a lot of potential and fills out "why is he still here" in AVoS? This may too early to say considering Crowfeather's Trial hasn't come out yet, however, I do fear that Breezepelt's 'redemption' arc will just be handed out to him on a silver platter. As in, he'll do nothing to earn it like you've said needs to happen. That's what has happened so far. During the Great Battle, all the other trainees hideaway but eventually fraught on the side of the Clans, so never technically fraught for the Dark Forest. With the exception of two: Redwillow, who paid the ultimate price with his death and being sent to DF, while Breezepelt was seen fighting one of his clanmates and then later tried to kill his Thunderclan half-brother, Lionblaze. And that's just what we saw on-page, who knows how many other Clan/Starclan cats he attacked. Yet despite this, he fed off others trainees' remorse in order to get off scot-free despite his betrayal. In Vision of Shadows, the little we see of him, he's hasn't appeared to change much, one of the most aggressive cats in the whole Clans, often snarling or insulting others. Now, he has a mate and kits, but that doesn't mean anything. Most characters have a mate/kits, but that doesn't mean they've better people, even Tigerstar had a family. Even if it turns out he treats them well, that still doesn't mean much. Of course, people can still treat their family well but still be terrible to others outside their kin, it's extremely biased.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 10:06:41 GMT -5
I don't think Blackstar and Hollyleaf tried to kill a pregnant queen andย a med cat on sacred ground. Well Blackstar certainly murdered an elder trying to protect kits and was easily aiming to steal said kits when his clan invaded another clan, breaking multiple codes. Oh, and then he slaughtered a clan deputy who was held prisoner and starved and was defending apprentices. You know, while showing literally no remorse or apology after the fact. So...was he really "forced"? Or was he just as manipulated and aggressive as Breezepelt was? I'm not letting him get off scott free, sorry. And Hollyleaf did try to kill a medicine cat. Literally, her own mother, by cornering her in her own den and aiming to force her to swallow poison. But it's all okay if she regrets it later, right? And if Breezepelt is shown to regret his actions when we get a more accurate and full POV from him? Will we still deny him a chance at redemption? Seems kind of unfair. It IS fair. If one regrets their actions then we know for a fact that they're willing to change. This is why people love Hollyleaf. She knew the moment she left in the tunnels, she did bad things. There was even a time when she missed Squirrelflight while she was gone. She was the first to forgive Leafpool on her deathbed. That's loyalty, despite everything. That is genuine sorrow. People love Hollyleaf because she tried to make up for her Clan, and she did, very fairly, and paid with her life. She sacrificed her own life to save Ivypool, a cat she barely knew. She could've just left Ivypool to die, but she didn't. We're harder on Breezepelt because he doesn't care. The difference between Hollyleaf and Breezepelt is that she was remorseful and she knew she did bad things. Breeze didn't give a flying tail. He used Ivypool's words for the reason he stayed in the Dark Forest. I can't remember where this was said, but either Ivypool or Dovewing both believed he knew what he was doing. He had no loyalty to his Clan or the code whatsoever, and you're really willing to let that slide? You really think we're being unfair to him, when he killed a pregnant queen, and didn't care about loyalty, even after the Great Battle? Hollyleaf made up for her own actions; Breezepelt didn't. He had plenty of chances and he blew them all. Onestar was a complete idiot for letting him stay. He should have been killed, no questions asked. That's the difference between them. She made up for her crimes. He didn't. And even if Breeze does try, he's only doing it for himself, because back in DS he proved he doesn't care. If he's willing to change now, it's because he knows he crossed the line and nearly lost his clan. If cats are still judging him for his own crimes now then I'm pretty sure we are being fair to him by judging him the way we do. If we're being unfair you may as well tell the cats who are still sketchy of him for not being fair and to give him a chance. But he's had his chances. I say he should've been exiled.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2018 10:08:18 GMT -5
I also think people are too quick to write off how terrible a dad Crowfeather really is. It's not just fan interpretation; when all three of the PoT protagonists comments on him being horrible, it's kinda hammering in that he is. Like 'stern' would be scolding your son when he does things wrong, but also guiding him to do right. The kind of dad you groan about because he's super strict, but know he has your best interests at heart. Constantly doubting your son's ability to do stuff (like a simple barrier check), never showing pride when he does things right (the pigeon in Eclipse), being overall unenthusiastic about his presence (saying "well I GUESS he has to come"), and putting him down instead of trying to explain ("you'll never understand loyalty", or how about just saying WHY you should help again)? That's not stern, that's outright negligent of his job as a father and role model. Abusive at worst. To say nothing of how the DF is manipulative, grooming, and abusive for everyone who gets pulled in (not just Breezepelt--Hawkfrost first got Ivypaw by taking advantage of her desire for recognition, and Blossomfall and Antpelt were there because the DF made them feel more loved than their own Clanmates did). Now, I'm not saying any of this justifies his crime, because it doesn't. But considering where he came from, it's not hard to see why he ended up so unstable, and...up there are about three posts saying "well Hollyleaf and Blackstar didn't do this". And that just grinds my goat because reducing a character to just one trait or action is never a good thing. You miss out on all the nuances. "Sure, Hollyleaf never tried to kill a pregnant queen. Breezepelt never tried to murder his own mother. Bing-bing, that automatically makes him better than her." No. You can't do stuff like that. Hollyleaf isn't a morally better cat because of what she didn't do, but because of what she did, and Breezepelt isn't made of one crime. And another thing to consider: Hollyleaf and Blackstar have way more screentime. Blackstar was around for like four series, and as a Clan leader, got a lot of attention. Hollyleaf was a POV character. We got to see their redemptions play out. Breezepelt's shown up like twice since OoTS, and in small roles. We have no idea if he feels remorse or if/how he tried to redeem himself--Onestar had to keep him around for a reason, right? Maybe he's not redeemed. Maybe he is and just keeps up being a jerk to the other Clans as a facade. I expect we'll see more in CT since that bridges OotS and AVoS. If he's not redeemed there, that answers our questions. If he is, that also answers them. And finally, I think something this topic gets wrong is that in redemption stories, the redeem-ee doesn't deserve a second chance. At the end of PoT, I would have said Hollyleaf didn't deserve to be redeemed, or after TPB, that Blackstar didn't. What made me believe they deserved to be redeemed was the fact they tried. Redemption is something you earn, not something you have set up nice and easy for you. Breezepelt, if he went for it, would have a hard road ahead of him--not just his crimes, but his entire unstable mindset would need to be overcome--and that's something that'd be interesting to read for me. So tl;dr, yes, I do think we should see a redemption story for him, because it has a lot of potential and fills out "why is he still here" in AVoS? *gets on one knee* Post? Will you marry me because you're perfect in every way?
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2018 10:10:55 GMT -5
Well Blackstar certainly murdered an elder trying to protect kits and was easily aiming to steal said kits when his clan invaded another clan, breaking multiple codes. Oh, and then he slaughtered a clan deputy who was held prisoner and starved and was defending apprentices. You know, while showing literally no remorse or apology after the fact. So...was he really "forced"? Or was he just as manipulated and aggressive as Breezepelt was? I'm not letting him get off scott free, sorry. And Hollyleaf did try to kill a medicine cat. Literally, her own mother, by cornering her in her own den and aiming to force her to swallow poison. But it's all okay if she regrets it later, right? And if Breezepelt is shown to regret his actions when we get a more accurate and full POV from him? Will we still deny him a chance at redemption? Seems kind of unfair. It IS fair. If one regrets their actions then we know for a fact that they're willing to change. This is why people love Hollyleaf. She knew the moment she left in the tunnels, she did bad things. There was even a time when she missed Squirrelflight while she was gone. She was the first to forgive Leafpool on her deathbed. That's loyalty, despite everything. That is genuine sorrow. People love Hollyleaf because she tried to make up for her Clan, and she did, very fairly, and paid with her life. She sacrificed her own life to save Ivypool, a cat she barely knew. She could've just left Ivypool to die, but she didn't. We're harder on Breezepelt because he doesn't care. The difference between Hollyleaf and Breezepelt is that she was remorseful and she knew she did bad things. Breeze didn't give a flying tail. He used Ivypool's words for the reason he stayed in the Dark Forest. I can't remember where this was said, but either Ivypool or Dovewing both believed he knew what he was doing. He had no loyalty to his Clan or the code whatsoever, and you're really willing to let that slide? You really think we're being unfair to him, when he killed a pregnant queen, and didn't care about loyalty, even after the Great Battle? Hollyleaf made up for her own actions; Breezepelt didn't. He had plenty of chances and he blew them all. Onestar was a complete idiot for letting him stay. He should have been killed, no questions asked. That's the difference between them. She made up for her crimes. He didn't. And even if Breeze does try, he's only doing it for himself, because back in DS he proved he doesn't care. If he's willing to change now, it's because he knows he crossed the line and nearly lost his clan. If cats are still judging him for his own crimes now then I'm pretty sure we are being fair to him by judging him the way we do. If we're being unfair you may as well tell the cats who are still sketchy of him for not being fair and to give him a chance. But he's had his chances. I say he should've been exiled. Sigh. Again. Hardly any real screen time. I'm not changing my opinion until I get more of Breezepelt in the SE coming out. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to even attempt to fully say he doesn't care until we get way more scenes and POV from him. Hollyleaf had a whole Novella for herself. Blackstar had tons of scenes. Breezepelt needs more. I can't agree. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by gonxkillua on Jun 9, 2018 10:47:40 GMT -5
I'm fine with him being reedemed but it has to be well wrriten and handle well. He has to earned it, if it's just undeservely given to him I will be very upset.
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