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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 14:16:29 GMT -5
Ok, I see what you mean now. But what do you mean that we need to "wash our sins away"? I believe that Christ has already washed our sins (past, present, and future) away, and the reason that we try not to sin is because we love Him and want to obey Him. Are you a Catholic, perchance? I know that they have somewhat different doctrine on this. And, having talked to many homosexual people, had many homosexual friends, and read about many attempts to "pray the gay away" which wound up doing much more harm than good, I think it's true to say that simply being attracted to the same sex is not, in and of itself, a sin. Think of it this way: it's not a sin to be attracted to the opposite sex unless you think lustful thoughts about someone or act on your attraction in a way that is outside of a monogamous, loving, consensual marriage. It's the same thing with homosexuality, except that we go one step further and say that you can't act on your attraction even inside of a loving, monogamous, consensual marriage- and as I said, even that's up for debate. No, Im a Christian with no denomination. I had been brought up in a slight Missionary Church however. I am now going to a completely non-denominational church. "I believe that Christ has already washed our sins (past, present, and future) away" I believe this too, but you know, I never exactly thought of it this way. I guess what I mean is/what I've been taught (?), it's a continual washing, God wants us to ask for it to be washed away, he wants us to be aware of our sins and to repent from them. Therefore, when I repent from them, I tend to ask him to take it away once again, a continuation of what Christ did for us on the cross. Those who first come to Christ usually ask something like this, I believe we should continually come to Christ just as when we first came to him. I can ask my grandparents more on this to get a better understanding of it myself and also explain to you all why. "we go one step further and say that you can't act on your attraction even inside of a loving, monogamous, consensual marriage" ^ This is exactly what Im trying to say. I really need to work on how I word things, Im sorry for the confusion. I'm inclined to agree with you on that point about continually coming to Him, but I don't think that it is necessary to do that in order to be saved. For example, if your car plummets off a bridge and you shout the Lord's name in vain just before it hits the ground, are you going to hell just because you didn't ask God to forgive that specific sin before you died? Of course not. Christ died once for our sins, and if we confess that we are sinners, believe that Jesus died to atone for our sins and was resurrected, and trust in Him alone for salvation, we are forever saved. However, yes, at the same time, we continually ask God for forgiveness, because it shows that we have the Holy Spirit in us, who convicts us of our sin. It also shows that we understand that sin is wrong and are agreeing with God on the issue, and it additionally keeps us humble. I'm just trying to say that forgetting to ask forgiveness for one or several individual sins because of, y'know, human memory, will not keep you from Christ. And I'm glad to hear we agree on the latter issue!
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 14:17:36 GMT -5
Ikr? I, perhaps foolishly, hoped that I could use the apologetics skills I've learned in school and in some of my own tentative studies to at least plant the seeds in their mind for the Holy Spirit to move at some point and slowly start showing them that their beliefs are wrong, but their beliefs are wayyyyy more deeply ingrained in them than I'd thought. I'm just gonna keep talking to them, though, and pray that God uses me to get their minds reconsidering things a bit so that they're at least slightly more open to being moved by the Holy Spirit at some point in the future. You have planted the seed. The best we can do in any situation is witness by living how God instructs us to live, glorifying Him with our actions and our words. That said... I would say they probably need psychological help as well as ministering. Being in a community like that would scar anyone mentally. Indeed. I can't help them in that field, unfortunately, but I'll just keep praying that they get the help they need.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 21, 2016 14:28:17 GMT -5
No, Im a Christian with no denomination. I had been brought up in a slight Missionary Church however. I am now going to a completely non-denominational church. "I believe that Christ has already washed our sins (past, present, and future) away" I believe this too, but you know, I never exactly thought of it this way. I guess what I mean is/what I've been taught (?), it's a continual washing, God wants us to ask for it to be washed away, he wants us to be aware of our sins and to repent from them. Therefore, when I repent from them, I tend to ask him to take it away once again, a continuation of what Christ did for us on the cross. Those who first come to Christ usually ask something like this, I believe we should continually come to Christ just as when we first came to him. I can ask my grandparents more on this to get a better understanding of it myself and also explain to you all why. "we go one step further and say that you can't act on your attraction even inside of a loving, monogamous, consensual marriage" ^ This is exactly what Im trying to say. I really need to work on how I word things, Im sorry for the confusion. I'm inclined to agree with you on that point about continually coming to Him, but I don't think that it is necessary to do that in order to be saved. For example, if your car plummets off a bridge and you shout the Lord's name in vain just before it hits the ground, are you going to hell just because you didn't ask God to forgive that specific sin before you died? Of course not. Christ died once for our sins, and if we confess that we are sinners, believe that Jesus died to atone for our sins and was resurrected, and trust in Him alone for salvation, we are forever saved. However, yes, at the same time, we continually ask God for forgiveness, because it shows that we have the Holy Spirit in us, who convicts us of our sin. It also shows that we understand that sin is wrong and are agreeing with God on the issue, and it additionally keeps us humble. I'm just trying to say that forgetting to ask forgiveness for one or several individual sins because of, y'know, human memory, will not keep you from Christ. And I'm glad to hear we agree on the latter issue! "necessary to do that in order to be saved." If I said that is necessary to do so, Im sorry I had misspoken. I never intended to say is absolutely necessary to do so. "It also shows that we understand that sin is wrong and are agreeing with God on the issue, and it additionally keeps us humble." This is what Im really trying to say. I think we've got this all cleared up now! Honestly, you're saying everything Im trying to say when I just cant get it out right. I REALLY need to work on my writing skills.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 14:32:19 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with you on that point about continually coming to Him, but I don't think that it is necessary to do that in order to be saved. For example, if your car plummets off a bridge and you shout the Lord's name in vain just before it hits the ground, are you going to hell just because you didn't ask God to forgive that specific sin before you died? Of course not. Christ died once for our sins, and if we confess that we are sinners, believe that Jesus died to atone for our sins and was resurrected, and trust in Him alone for salvation, we are forever saved. However, yes, at the same time, we continually ask God for forgiveness, because it shows that we have the Holy Spirit in us, who convicts us of our sin. It also shows that we understand that sin is wrong and are agreeing with God on the issue, and it additionally keeps us humble. I'm just trying to say that forgetting to ask forgiveness for one or several individual sins because of, y'know, human memory, will not keep you from Christ. And I'm glad to hear we agree on the latter issue! "necessary to do that in order to be saved." If I said that is necessary to do so, Im sorry I had misspoken. I never intended to say is absolutely necessary to do so. "It also shows that we understand that sin is wrong and are agreeing with God on the issue, and it additionally keeps us humble." This is what Im really trying to say. I think we've got this all cleared up now! Honestly, you're saying everything Im trying to say when I just cant get it out right. I REALLY need to work on my writing skills. Hey, that's ok. Glad to see we've got it all cleared up!
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 21, 2016 14:39:03 GMT -5
"necessary to do that in order to be saved." If I said that is necessary to do so, Im sorry I had misspoken. I never intended to say is absolutely necessary to do so. "It also shows that we understand that sin is wrong and are agreeing with God on the issue, and it additionally keeps us humble." This is what Im really trying to say. I think we've got this all cleared up now! Honestly, you're saying everything Im trying to say when I just cant get it out right. I REALLY need to work on my writing skills. Hey, that's ok. Glad to see we've got it all cleared up! I honestly just feel terrible that I wasn't able to explain all that myself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 15:02:48 GMT -5
Hey whenever someone is on can you tell me if we are still up for that movie tomorrow night?
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 15:03:22 GMT -5
Hey whenever someone is on can you tell me if we are still up for that movie tomorrow night? Yep, we're still on! Information is on the front page.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 15:06:18 GMT -5
Hey, that's ok. Glad to see we've got it all cleared up! I honestly just feel terrible that I wasn't able to explain all that myself. That's okay! Nobody's perfect, you'll get there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 16:14:09 GMT -5
Woah, haven't been on in a while. Did I miss anything in the past 30 pages? XD
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 16:34:23 GMT -5
heyo what'er we taking about today
also we should make movie mondays a thing
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 16:41:14 GMT -5
Woah, haven't been on in a while. Did I miss anything in the past 30 pages? XD I don't remember tbh, we've covered a lot lol. Welcome back though~
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 16:45:50 GMT -5
heyo what'er we taking about today also we should make movie mondays a thing We were talking about homosexuality (again) and cults, mostly. Also I love that idea. I was thinking that we'd definitely do that again, but I hadn't considered making it a regular thing. Maybe just like the first Monday of every month or something though, since I wouldn't wanna put too much pressure on either @jester or I (if I were to take over the job of hosting livestreams, depending on what she wants to do) to constantly have to make time for that. We could probably switch off between hosting streams, though, now that I think about it. Idk, we'll have to see what everyone thinks.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 17:02:19 GMT -5
I don't believe being bi is right. God made us to be with someone of our opposite gender but it doesn't mean I'll disrespect you for it. My best friends are LGBT+ and I love them all the same, I wont ever love them less for it, it's a shame that had happened to you. Know that you are welcome here Cat. I hope you find a place you can call home and don't have to worry about being judged. The bible tells us not to judge, but we all cant help it can we? Heh. well, i mean, you can't go to hell for just being gay, or at least that's what catholicism teaches, and i'm never planning on being with someone or the opposite gender, so ^^' i was reading through the pages i missed and saw this just wanted to clarify: catholicism teaches that merely being gay or having homosexual thoughts is not in itself a sin. It only becomes sinful if you act upon it. Just like we don't condemn thoughts of stealing, because temptation lurks in everyone's minds. If we push away such thoughts and do not act according to them, we have done nothing wrong. Even then, Catholicism's belief on salvation and who is damned to hell is often more complex than your average corner church's. We do not believe a living person can ever know for sure if they're going to Heaven, because it relies on human judgement for such a distinction, and our judgement is not equal to God's. We can confirm some souls after their death; it's a complicated process, however, that requires miracles or signs (I can explain in more detail for the curious). But the Catholic Church never states with certainly that someone is in hell or going to be. Because we have no way to tell for certain of a soul, and who are we to make such judgements about something that is between a man and God? Basically, no matter what the sin, Catholicism will never tell you, for sure, that you will go to hell for it. But we believe it is out duty to let people know that committing sins can get you on the path. I could go into the difference between venial and mortal sin, and then into the argument of mercy/forgiveness, and even Purgatory. But that would be more information than both asked for and needed right now. The Catholic Church does not believe gay people choose to be the way they are. The recognize that sometimes they can't help the thoughts of feelings they have. So Catholicism doesn't condemn them for that. But the Church does condemn the choice of acting upon such thoughts and feelings, because at that point it does become a choice, and the point when it is considered a sin. So, for instance, a bisexual that does not partake in his/her homosexual feelings has not done anything wrong. And a celibate gay/lesbian would have done nothing wrong either. Is the above defined sin enough to condemn someone to hell, just for that? I don't know. As I said, Catholicism teaches no absolutes besides the mortal sins. Regardless, just like any other sin (such as extreme anger, laziness, envy), we should do our best to avoid committing it.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 17:03:13 GMT -5
heyo what'er we taking about today also we should make movie mondays a thing We were talking about homosexuality (again) and cults, mostly. Also I love that idea. I was thinking that we'd definitely do that again, but I hadn't considered making it a regular thing. Maybe just like the first Monday of every month or something though, since I wouldn't wanna put too much pressure on either @jester or I (if I were to take over the job of hosting livestreams, depending on what she wants to do) to constantly have to make time for that. We could probably switch off between hosting streams, though, now that I think about it. Idk, we'll have to see what everyone thinks. monthy movie mondays? has a nice alliteration ring
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 17:20:31 GMT -5
So I was reading over the debate about lifelong sanctification/born-again-ness and stuff. And Idk why, but I've come off it feeling amused lol I guess it's just because Catholic teaching on forgiveness from sin is very different from protestants' belief, so the internal debate feels ineffectual to me because it's a disagreement inside a belief that we don't agree with.
sort like if a Lutheran and a Catholic started arguing about transubstantiation y'all'd probably be like "whut"
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 21, 2016 17:25:35 GMT -5
Im already confused Shadow. XD
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 17:37:25 GMT -5
So I was reading over the debate about lifelong sanctification/born-again-ness and stuff. And Idk why, but I've come off it feeling amused lol I guess it's just because Catholic teaching on forgiveness from sin is very different from protestants' belief, so the internal debate feels ineffectual to me because it's a disagreement inside a belief that we don't agree with. sort like if a Lutheran and a Catholic started arguing about transubstantiation y'all'd probably be like "whut" What exactly, from your perspective, is the Catholic view on forgiveness of sins? I don't know much about it. Jesus' sacrifice pays the way to heaven, but the sacraments purify you and keep you from purgatory, or something??? Edit: Ah I see you pretty much already answered this. I missed that, my bad.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 17:47:33 GMT -5
well, i mean, you can't go to hell for just being gay, or at least that's what catholicism teaches, and i'm never planning on being with someone or the opposite gender, so ^^' I see what you mean and I've looked at other peoples perspectives and I do understand why people have turned to the same gender. But I do believe you can go to hell for being gay, and that God made us only to be with our opposite gender or being asexual (more specifically what Hearts said), we all do need companionship and God has specifically made someone for each and every person and it's up to us to actually find that person. The bible says it is wrong for a woman to lay with a woman or a man to lay with a man. I undoubtly believe it is sin if you act upon it. Now though, I have talked to my pastor. And we came to this subject, it is sin if you do the act but it is not sin if you keep it to yourself, action and words wise I believe. ahhh i meant same gender yikes that changes the meaning of that a lot ahhh i was on my way out the door sorry. no, being bi i plan on finding a man i like. i personally don't have a problem with other gay people, because tbh it's between them and God. does the bible say it's wrong to be with someone of the same gender? yeah. but who is the judge of all in the end? God. so, i can't say that i believe they go to hell, and i also can't say i believe they go to heaven, but you can believe what you want ^^
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 17:48:44 GMT -5
well, i mean, you can't go to hell for just being gay, or at least that's what catholicism teaches, and i'm never planning on being with someone or the opposite gender, so ^^' i was reading through the pages i missed and saw this just wanted to clarify: catholicism teaches that merely being gay or having homosexual thoughts is not in itself a sin. It only becomes sinful if you act upon it. Just like we don't condemn thoughts of stealing, because temptation lurks in everyone's minds. If we push away such thoughts and do not act according to them, we have done nothing wrong. Even then, Catholicism's belief on salvation and who is damned to hell is often more complex than your average corner church's. We do not believe a living person can ever know for sure if they're going to Heaven, because it relies on human judgement for such a distinction, and our judgement is not equal to God's. We can confirm some souls after their death; it's a complicated process, however, that requires miracles or signs (I can explain in more detail for the curious). But the Catholic Church never states with certainly that someone is in hell or going to be. Because we have no way to tell for certain of a soul, and who are we to make such judgements about something that is between a man and God? Basically, no matter what the sin, Catholicism will never tell you, for sure, that you will go to hell for it. But we believe it is out duty to let people know that committing sins can get you on the path. I could go into the difference between venial and mortal sin, and then into the argument of mercy/forgiveness, and even Purgatory. But that would be more information than both asked for and needed right now. The Catholic Church does not believe gay people choose to be the way they are. The recognize that sometimes they can't help the thoughts of feelings they have. So Catholicism doesn't condemn them for that. But the Church does condemn the choice of acting upon such thoughts and feelings, because at that point it does become a choice, and the point when it is considered a sin. So, for instance, a bisexual that does not partake in his/her homosexual feelings has not done anything wrong. And a celibate gay/lesbian would have done nothing wrong either. Is the above defined sin enough to condemn someone to hell, just for that? I don't know. As I said, Catholicism teaches no absolutes besides the mortal sins. Regardless, just like any other sin (such as extreme anger, laziness, envy), we should do our best to avoid committing it. as i said, i meant same gender. yikes. that's what you get for trying to type while getting in the car.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 21, 2016 18:00:22 GMT -5
XD It's fine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 18:11:34 GMT -5
okay xD i was confused by your response and i had to read it like three times to figure out what i said wrong oops.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 21, 2016 18:34:17 GMT -5
Well, actually I was more of responding to your, you cant go to hell for being gay, but me and another person sorted that out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 18:39:18 GMT -5
yeah xD no, it's okay. i'm a very easily confused person.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 18:42:17 GMT -5
So I was reading over the debate about lifelong sanctification/born-again-ness and stuff. And Idk why, but I've come off it feeling amused lol I guess it's just because Catholic teaching on forgiveness from sin is very different from protestants' belief, so the internal debate feels ineffectual to me because it's a disagreement inside a belief that we don't agree with. sort like if a Lutheran and a Catholic started arguing about transubstantiation y'all'd probably be like "whut" What exactly, from your perspective, is the Catholic view on forgiveness of sins? I don't know much about it. Jesus' sacrifice pays the way to heaven, but the sacraments purify you and keep you from purgatory, or something??? Edit: Ah I see you pretty much already answered this. I missed that, my bad. eh, I sorta explained that we don't think that salvation is as simple as completely clean/completely condemned and that it's grayer, but I wouldn't say I explained our belief on how forgiveness from sin works. To do that I'd have to talk about reconciliation, venial vs mortal sin, why we think we need to confess to a priest. So we don't believe in "blanket forgiveness"-- that any and all sins we commit are forgiven regardless of remorse, so state of grace at death doesn't mean anything. And oh gosh, Purgatory, that's a whole 'nother thing. Let's just say Catholicism is complicated xD as i said, i meant same gender. yikes. that's what you get for trying to type while getting in the car. i actually didn't notice that either lol i was mostly explaining for those less familiar with catholic teaching on the subject less they get confused
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 21, 2016 18:46:51 GMT -5
yeah xD no, it's okay. i'm a very easily confused person. Haha it's okay. I'm terrible at getting my point across.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 18:49:31 GMT -5
ahhh okay i'm not confused now everyone it's okay.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 19:05:07 GMT -5
also i want to suggest Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It's a hard read especially if you're younger, but it's chocked full of goodies.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 19:33:35 GMT -5
also i want to suggest Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It's a hard read especially if you're younger, but it's chocked full of goodies. I have not, unfortunately, read that book yet, but I've heard so many good things about it that I've always been planning to read it at some point. I've just never gotten around to it.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 21, 2016 19:56:05 GMT -5
also i want to suggest Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It's a hard read especially if you're younger, but it's chocked full of goodies. I have not, unfortunately, read that book yet, but I've heard so many good things about it that I've always been planning to read it at some point. I've just never gotten around to it. I read it for the first time in 7th grade, and I understood literally not a word of it. I had to have my older sister explain it to me sentence by sentence. Not sure what it was-- something about the word choices, pacing, and order of the sentences made it incomprehensible to me. Now, a senior, I understand it xD
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 21, 2016 19:58:57 GMT -5
I have not, unfortunately, read that book yet, but I've heard so many good things about it that I've always been planning to read it at some point. I've just never gotten around to it. I read it for the first time in 7th grade, and I understood literally not a word of it. I had to have my older sister explain it to me sentence by sentence. Not sure what it was-- something about the word choices, pacing, and order of the sentences made it incomprehensible to me. Now, a senior, I understand it xD Yeah, I can definitely see how CS Lewis' writings would be pretty hard to understand at that age.
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