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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2017 16:07:51 GMT -5
THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS. PROCEED WITH CAUTION. How they did Rowanstar. How they destroyed his leadership like that. And I know they did it literally to put a spotlight on Tigerheart. For god's sake just kill Rowanstar in a huge rockfall and take his lives at once as a respected leader if you want Tigerstar so badly!
And even if they made the whole "you can't control your clanmates so you're a horrible leader." argument.
Uhm..
What?
Ok. First of all, how the heck are you supposed to control your clan when they clearly have no intentions of letting you lead AT ALL, get angry when you do as they want, run off to join rouges then practically beg to be taken back ONLY TO DO NOTHING BUT FIGHT AND COMPLAIN.
Seriously. It's like telling my math teacher to stop a pack of rabid wolves. No matter how smart or stern or controlling my math teacher may be, he's not going to be able to stop a pack of rabid wolves no matter what he does.
I'm so angry they made Rowanclaw so brutally disrespected only to bring about a leader that hardly anybody wanted!!! I don't remember Rowanstar breaking the code, running away from his clan, having kits with a Thunderclan cat, sneaking off to god knows where.
But no, go on. Tell me more about how awful a leader he was.
I won't be listening.
Ugh. Darkest Night has me shook.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2017 16:13:17 GMT -5
AND I MEAN
What can he do to control them? Threaten to claw them apart like Darktail? Drown them like Darktail? Violently abuse and disregard them? OR MAYBE! Here's an idea!
Steal kits from other clans and lead cats from hell to destroy the clans, like our good buddy Brokenstar. Oooh, or maybe he can kill a deputy or two like Blackstar. Oooh, better yet, maybe he could sneak off with Daisy or something and abandon his clan, come back and suddenly be an incredibly well respected and obeyed leader! Yeah, man, stupid Rowanstar! Look at all his options! 😁
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2017 16:31:44 GMT -5
i am just...ugh, i am disgusted.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 16:56:06 GMT -5
They ruined 2 perfectly good characters just to make Tigerstar look good. They made Dovewing betray her Clan for her own selfish reasons and gave Rowanstar such a hard life. This is just unfair to the characters that actually had potential, only to make Tigerheart look good.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 16:56:54 GMT -5
I know I sound dramatic but, I will never, ever forgive the Erins for ruining my precious Dovewing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 17:01:32 GMT -5
I haven't read the Darkest Night, but this is how I always interpreted everything.
After the Great Battle, ShadowClan was thrown into more disarray than they had been in a while. Many cats were killed including kittens, and some of their Clanmates betrayed them by fighting for the Dark Forest. Then to make matters worse, a flood comes along killing Blackstar, while also wiping out their camp. Things are pretty tense as Rowanstar steps up to the plate trying to fix everything. He's got so much on his shoulders, and the problems only seem to grow as kittypets and badgers keep targeting ShadowClan. There's already a lot of tension and distrust in ShadowClan after the battle, but it only grows as Rowanstar is unable to save ShadowClan without ThunderClan's help.
Time goes on, and ShadowClan's numbers start growing at an alarming rate. So many cats are being born that the new cats start to outnumber the old. There aren't enough experienced warriors to keep the younger cats in check, so younger warriors are being put in charge of even younger cats. Since they don't have any experience or proper disipline themselves, the younger warriors allow their apprentices to go unchecked. All of these cats are being brought up without the proper disipline of the older generations, which is creating problems. And the tension and hostility from earlier is still there, making things worse. The problem grows so big, but since no one can do anything about it everyone just brushes it under the rug until the breaking point in TAS.
When Needletail and the others bring Darktail to ShadowClan, most of ShadowClan's warriors submit to Darktail because he's stronger than Rowanstar. ShadowClan has always been a bunch of followers. They accept whoever comes their way, as long as they can make them strong and feared. That's why they accepted cats like Brokenstar, OG Tigerstar, and Blackstar so quickly despite their pasts. ShadowClan thinks Rowanstar is weak because he isn't out here conquering everyone and making ShadowClan feared like it used to be. So they overthrow him, Tawnypelt, and Tigerheart.
Eventually Darktail is defeated, and Rowanstar takes over ShadowClan again. But the problems don't end there. The tension and distrust from earlier is a hundred times worse. Everyone thinks their way is right, and no one wants to listen. They're supposed to be sorry, but they aren't. They're getting into arguments with each other, they're attacking one another, and cats are still trying to leave. Everything is a huge mess that doesn't seem to be getting any better.
So when Tigerheart leaves, Rowanstar just breaks. He's sick of ShadowClan. While there have always been problems, this is too much for him to bare. His Clanmates are a bunch of traitors who clearly don't want him to lead, so why bother? They have done nothing but ridicule and challenge him since he became leader, drove him out, betrayed him so many times, killed his daughter, attacked his mate, and now his son has disappeared. He has nothing left to keep him going, so he steps down. ShadowClan can fend for itself for all he cares at this point. They're beyond repair, and he isn't going to keep wasting his time.
So eventually River of Fire happens, and whatever goes on in that book completely brings ShadowClan to an all time low. Worse than all of the past couple of years combined. They're practically wiped out. We don't know what happens yet, but we know it is pretty bad. I think a couple of cats besides Rowanstar are going to die. The remaining ShadowClan cats band together and try to work things out, but they're so weak. They don't have any more territory, and they are too small to challenge SkyClan for theirs back. Right when they are about to give up, Tigerheart comes back. They can't believe it. It's a miracle to them. Not only is the rightful leader back, but he also brought a ton of cats with him to help reshape ShadowClan. They accept Tigerheart and the others without question, because they need them. They don't care about all of the stuff these cats have done while they were gone, because they too have done some pretty terrible and questionable things. All they can do is repent for their actions, and try to move on from it while building the new generation of ShadowClan together.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2017 17:04:59 GMT -5
EXACTLYYYY PREACH TO ME AQUA!!!
I liked Dovewing! And it sucks that her whole arc and all her sacrafices for Thunderclan amounted to nothing. That Tigerheart's potential to make himself a loyal cat and put his clan first was ruined. That the only thing we got out of a genuinely loyal, non murderous and interesting Shadowclan leader was him suddenly not being respected out of nowhere!
No leader can ever be a "good leader" without their followers at least trying! It's a two-man job, to have a strong leader, you need followers willing to trust that cat! And I sure would trust Rowanstar over cats like Brokenstar, Blackstar, Tigerstar and Tigerstar 2, who all broke the code like a glowstick!
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2017 17:11:33 GMT -5
I haven't read the Darkest Night, but this is how I always interpreted everything. After the Great Battle, ShadowClan was thrown into more disarray than they had been in a while. Many cats were killed including kittens, and some of their Clanmates betrayed them by fighting for the Dark Forest. Then to make matters worse, a flood comes along killing Blackstar, while also wiping out their camp. Things are pretty tense as Rowanstar steps up to the plate trying to fix everything. He's got so much on his shoulders, and the problems only seem to grow as kittypets and badgers keep targeting ShadowClan. There's already a lot of tension and distrust in ShadowClan after the battle, but it only grows as Rowanstar is unable to save ShadowClan without ThunderClan's help. Time goes on, and ShadowClan's numbers start growing at an alarming rate. So many cats are being born that the new cats start to outnumber the old. There aren't enough experienced warriors to keep the younger cats in check, so younger warriors are being put in charge of even younger cats. Since they don't have any experience or proper disipline themselves, the younger warriors allow their apprentices to go unchecked. All of these cats are being brought up without the proper disipline of the older generations, which is creating problems. And the tension and hostility from earlier is still there, making things worse. The problem grows so big, but since no one can do anything about it everyone just brushes it under the rug until the breaking point in TAS. When Needletail and the others bring Darktail to ShadowClan, most of ShadowClan's warriors submit to Darktail because he's stronger than Rowanstar. ShadowClan has always been a bunch of followers. They accept whoever comes their way, as long as they can make them strong and feared. That's why they accepted cats like Brokenstar, OG Tigerstar, and Blackstar so quickly despite their pasts. ShadowClan thinks Rowanstar is weak because he isn't out here conquering everyone and making ShadowClan feared like it used to be. So they overthrow him, Tawnypelt, and Tigerheart. Eventually Darktail is defeated, and Rowanstar takes over ShadowClan again. But the problems don't end there. The tension and distrust from earlier is a hundred times worse. Everyone thinks their way is right, and no one wants to listen. They're supposed to be sorry, but they aren't. They're getting into arguments with each other, they're attacking one another, and cats are still trying to leave. Everything is a huge mess that doesn't seem to be getting any better. So when Tigerheart leaves, Rowanstar just breaks. He's sick of ShadowClan. While there have always been problems, this is too much for him to bare. His Clanmates are a bunch of traitors who clearly don't want him to lead, so why bother? They have done nothing but ridicule and challenge him since he became leader, drove him out, betrayed him so many times, killed his daughter, attacked his mate, and now his son has disappeared. He has nothing left to keep him going, so he steps down. ShadowClan can fend for itself for all he cares at this point. They're beyond repair, and he isn't going to keep wasting his time. So eventually River of Fire happens, and whatever goes on in that book completely brings ShadowClan to an all time low. Worse than all of the past couple of years combined. They're practically wiped out. We don't know what happens yet, but we know it is pretty bad. I think a couple of cats besides Rowanstar are going to die. The remaining ShadowClan cats band together and try to work things out, but they're so weak. They don't have any more territory, and they are too small to challenge SkyClan for theirs back. Right when they are about to give up, Tigerheart comes back. They can't believe it. It's a miracle to them. Not only is the rightful leader back, but he also brought a ton of cats with him to help reshape ShadowClan. They accept Tigerheart and the others without question, because they need them. They don't care about all of the stuff these cats have done while they were gone, because they too have done some pretty terrible and questionable things. All they can do is repent for their actions, and try to move on from it while building the new generation of ShadowClan together. It just sucks that it's like this. For the first time in a long time we had a leader of Shadowclan that did not break the code. That did not abuse kits. That didn't relish for power, that was given 9 lives and deserved them! I liked Nightstar, but it's the same thing. Tossing away a good leader for a Tigerstar! And Shadowclan is my favorite clan. At least let them change so they don't have to be the center of all the bullcrap in the clans. Even reading Darkest Night, the Shadowclan cats really were not different than other clans. In fact, Riverclan was far more of a jerk than Shadowclan! I just hate that Tigerstar was forced on me, that a code breaker is rewarded and loved while a deserving leader got torn apart like that. Gods.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2017 17:18:24 GMT -5
And so help me Leafstar, when she said
"Blah, I wouldn't let my cats go wild like Rowanstar, blah"
oooooh. I was heated.
Yeah. Your Skyclan cats that are clearly kinder and more willing to worship the land you walk on, real hard to control those guys, huh? Leafstar, I don't want that bull.
This feels like a case of Victim Blaming that I do NOT want to hear about. Rowanstar and Tawnypelt are the only ones who actually tried and ugh.
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Post by SoaringFlight on Nov 24, 2017 17:38:58 GMT -5
I kinda liked it. It shows that life can be unfair.
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Smallrunner
violetsparkle is better than twigtwig. also, VOS names are 99.9% horrible :')
Pronouns: He/She/Ze/Your Majesty/Anything
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Post by Smallrunner on Nov 25, 2017 4:20:09 GMT -5
If only this happened with Brokenstar...Blackstar was fine. He was a good leader. And so was Rowanstar. Yes, that whole thing with Darktail beat him down, but it was ShadowClan's fault for following Darktail, not his. Don't say 'Oh, but he could've convinced them otherwise', because he did actually try to do that, but his stupid clan didn't listen.
*sigh*
Woe is me, one of my favourite clans is pretty much dead.
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Post by dashingshadows on Nov 25, 2017 15:55:53 GMT -5
Dovewing was always bratty
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2017 15:58:43 GMT -5
Dovewing was always bratty I could say the same about Ivypool too. I hate Ivypool. If anything she's worse than Dovewing.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 25, 2017 16:09:02 GMT -5
Dovewing was always bratty I could say the same about Ivypool too. I hate Ivypool. If anything she's worse than Dovewing. Hnggg. Dovewing was wayyyyyy worse to read than Ivypool...for me, at least. But that's just opinion haha
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2017 16:13:32 GMT -5
I could say the same about Ivypool too. I hate Ivypool. If anything she's worse than Dovewing. Hnggg. Dovewing was wayyyyyy worse to read than Ivypool...for me, at least. But that's just opinion haha both Dove and Ivy are just awful creatures tbh, they aren't the best characters but they certainly aren't the worst either, just wish the Erins handled them better
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Nov 25, 2017 16:45:44 GMT -5
Hnggg. Dovewing was wayyyyyy worse to read than Ivypool...for me, at least. But that's just opinion haha both Dove and Ivy are just awful creatures tbh, they aren't the best characters but they certainly aren't the worst either, just wish the Erins handled them better i've been saying this for years. the reason ivypool and dovewing suck so much is because they forced dovewing to be the third and replace hollyleaf. i guarantee if they just made hollyleaf the third and focus on the prophecy, then power of three could have been different, omen of the stars could have been the finale. the end.
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Post by Alpha on Nov 25, 2017 19:21:09 GMT -5
I'm kinda annoyed that they made it so Rowanstar didn't even try??? And when Tigerheart disappeared, he basically said "lol he was the only competent and loyal cat who could support me. guess ShadowClan will die." But there are cats standing right next to you that could help you rule??/?/?/?/?? but no, favouritism must reign supreme.
also pretty angry at the fact that Tigerheart got off incredibly loosely for abandoning his Clan for several moons.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2017 19:50:45 GMT -5
lmao when it comes to the wording in the books, especially tigerheart's shadow, they make it seem like rowanstar has been the absolute worse leader the clan has ever seen
rip rownstar's character
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2017 20:24:52 GMT -5
And so help me Leafstar, when she said "Blah, I wouldn't let my cats go wild like Rowanstar, blah" oooooh. I was heated. Yeah. Your Skyclan cats that are clearly kinder and more willing to worship the land you walk on, real hard to control those guys, huh? Leafstar, I don't want that bull. This feels like a case of Victim Blaming that I do NOT want to hear about. Rowanstar and Tawnypelt are the only ones who actually tried and ugh. tbh i was really pissed at her for saying that. they provided a home for you when nobody wanted to, quit acting so entitled.
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Post by Showers on Nov 25, 2017 22:58:17 GMT -5
at least his kits are cute
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 26, 2017 20:54:01 GMT -5
And so help me Leafstar, when she said "Blah, I wouldn't let my cats go wild like Rowanstar, blah" oooooh. I was heated. Yeah. Your Skyclan cats that are clearly kinder and more willing to worship the land you walk on, real hard to control those guys, huh? Leafstar, I don't want that bull. This feels like a case of Victim Blaming that I do NOT want to hear about. Rowanstar and Tawnypelt are the only ones who actually tried and ugh. tbh i was really pissed at her for saying that. they provided a home for you when nobody wanted to, quit acting so entitled.Sorry, but I agree with her. Rowanstar COULDN'T control his cats. If he could he wouldn't even be in the situation he ended up in, let alone cats siding with Darktail over him. Rowanstar was a bad leader, period. Leafstar did control her cats better than him, and when they made the choice to leave or not, she didn't force them to stay. She kept her cats together and made the lake journey and they came out on top. And even if the other clans didn't want her to stay there it doesn't mean she wouldn't have found another place anyways to support her clan. She actually had a fighting spirit to keep leading her clan, and a damn good set of deputies along the way. While Rowan's decided to leave to chase some tail, lol. Leafstar had to be firm when addressing the whole thing. I wouldn't want to deal with anymore pain in the back sides either, they should either treat her with respect, or leave. Period. She's more firm of a leader than Rowan has been for moons, and this is coming from someone who doesn't even like nor care much about her character either.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 26, 2017 21:11:36 GMT -5
tbh i was really pissed at her for saying that. they provided a home for you when nobody wanted to, quit acting so entitled. Sorry, but I agree with her. Rowanstar COULDN'T control his cats. If he could he wouldn't even be in the situation he ended up in, let alone cats siding with Darktail over him. Rowanstar was a bad leader, period. Leafstar did control her cats better than him, and when they made the choice to leave or not, she didn't force them to stay. She kept her cats together and made the lake journey and they came out on top. And even if the other clans didn't want her to stay there it doesn't mean she wouldn't have found another place anyways to support her clan. She actually had a fighting spirit to keep leading her clan, and a damn good set of deputies along the way. While Rowan's decided to leave to chase some tail, lol. Leafstar had to be firm when addressing the whole thing. I wouldn't want to deal with anymore pain in the back sides either, they should either treat her with respect, or leave. Period. She's more firm of a leader than Rowan has been for moons, and this is coming from someone who doesn't even like nor care much about her character either. To make a fair argument on Rowanstar's behalf though, Leafstar has led Skyclan far longer than he's led Shadowclan. Skyclan Warriors were clearly also more understanding, level-headed and loyal than the Shadowclan warriors were, even before Rowanstar came along. Crowfrost was a decent deputy. Rowanstar chose well with him, and I kind of wish he had lived, but I do understand the frustration. Rowanstar should have chosen Tawnypelt after Crowfrost. And Tigerheart is trash anyway. I could understand why she said that, and clearly Skyclan was more controlled, but the circumstances in Shadowclan make it unfair. I doubt any leader could have controlled cats like that no matter what they did. I just feel like the context was spiteful to say, especially so soon after Rowanstar made honestly a good decision and chose safety for his clanmates even after they acted so hatefully towards him. The very fact that he was willing to choose to give up his leadership in belief of doing what was best for his clanmates instead of resorting to harsh control and bloodshed made him a better leader than most. I dunno. Skyclan's just...ugh, I really haven't enjoyed reading anything Skyclan related.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 21:36:51 GMT -5
tbh i was really pissed at her for saying that. they provided a home for you when nobody wanted to, quit acting so entitled. Sorry, but I agree with her. Rowanstar COULDN'T control his cats. If he could he wouldn't even be in the situation he ended up in, let alone cats siding with Darktail over him. Rowanstar was a bad leader, period. Leafstar did control her cats better than him, and when they made the choice to leave or not, she didn't force them to stay. She kept her cats together and made the lake journey and they came out on top. And even if the other clans didn't want her to stay there it doesn't mean she wouldn't have found another place anyways to support her clan. She actually had a fighting spirit to keep leading her clan, and a damn good set of deputies along the way. While Rowan's decided to leave to chase some tail, lol. Leafstar had to be firm when addressing the whole thing. I wouldn't want to deal with anymore pain in the back sides either, they should either treat her with respect, or leave. Period. She's more firm of a leader than Rowan has been for moons, and this is coming from someone who doesn't even like nor care much about her character either. Rowanstar tried to keep his cats in line, but there's only so much he could have done when his entire Clan was against him. Right from the beginning his entire Clan was against him. No one ever gave him a chance to prove himself, not even the good cats like Tawnypelt. When he tried to role out punishments, no one cared. They just laughed him off and continued to do what they wanted. And since he had no one to help him enforce the rules, he had no back up to make sure what he said was done. His last resort was exile, which only made things worse. No matter what Rowanstar did, his cats just didn't care. They all wanted things their own way, and they didn't care about being punished. Cleaning the elders den or being exiled was nothing but a joke to them, because they had no loyalty to ShadowClan anyways so it meant nothing. So what else could he do? Beat them up to keep them in line? That wouldn't have worked. Leafstar would have been in the same position as Rowanstar if her Clan was behaving the same way. Plus, she is one to talk when she is so relaxed with the rules herself. She's always let her Clan break the rules and get away with it, the only difference is that no one in her Clan behaves the way ShadowClan does and it isn't because Leafstar keeps them in line. If suddenly a bunch of Needletail and Sleekwhisker type cats were born into SkyClan and started pushing her buttons, she wouldn't be able to do anything about them either. They'd just treat her the same way they treated Rowanstar.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 26, 2017 22:26:58 GMT -5
It really is unfair how Rowanstar has been treated, especially when he was made to be a weak leader just to make Tigerheart look better by comparison.
As for what Leafstar said, I see where both sides are coming from. Leafstar had no right to criticize, but at the same time, she never had to deal with such insubordination and never lived among the other Clans until very recently, and SkyClan itself also hasn't been around for very long either and is noticibly more relaxed than the other Clans thanks to their time in the gorge, where they didn't face that many dangers save for other cats and the occasional flood or fox until Darktail drove them out.
On the other hand, Rowanstar has tried his best, but every time he did, things went from bad to worse. His own pride doesn't help much either of course, and then there's also his age to keep in mind, as well as the pressure that would come with being ShadowClan's leader in general. Not to mention that he never had much ambition for the position to begin with, so that would likely affect his own leadership, as well as how other cats—including his own Clanmates—saw him.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Nov 26, 2017 22:43:52 GMT -5
I could say the same about Ivypool too. I hate Ivypool. If anything she's worse than Dovewing. Hnggg. Dovewing was wayyyyyy worse to read than Ivypool...for me, at least. But that's just opinion haha for me it depends upon which emotion I think is worse, boredom or irritation
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 27, 2017 1:21:09 GMT -5
Sorry, but I agree with her. Rowanstar COULDN'T control his cats. If he could he wouldn't even be in the situation he ended up in, let alone cats siding with Darktail over him. Rowanstar was a bad leader, period. Leafstar did control her cats better than him, and when they made the choice to leave or not, she didn't force them to stay. She kept her cats together and made the lake journey and they came out on top. And even if the other clans didn't want her to stay there it doesn't mean she wouldn't have found another place anyways to support her clan. She actually had a fighting spirit to keep leading her clan, and a damn good set of deputies along the way. While Rowan's decided to leave to chase some tail, lol. Leafstar had to be firm when addressing the whole thing. I wouldn't want to deal with anymore pain in the back sides either, they should either treat her with respect, or leave. Period. She's more firm of a leader than Rowan has been for moons, and this is coming from someone who doesn't even like nor care much about her character either. To make a fair argument on Rowanstar's behalf though, Leafstar has led Skyclan far longer than he's led Shadowclan. Skyclan Warriors were clearly also more understanding, level-headed and loyal than the Shadowclan warriors were, even before Rowanstar came along. Crowfrost was a decent deputy. Rowanstar chose well with him, and I kind of wish he had lived, but I do understand the frustration. Rowanstar should have chosen Tawnypelt after Crowfrost. And Tigerheart is trash anyway. I could understand why she said that, and clearly Skyclan was more controlled, but the circumstances in Shadowclan make it unfair. I doubt any leader could have controlled cats like that no matter what they did. I just feel like the context was spiteful to say, especially so soon after Rowanstar made honestly a good decision and chose safety for his clanmates even after they acted so hatefully towards him. The very fact that he was willing to choose to give up his leadership in belief of doing what was best for his clanmates instead of resorting to harsh control and bloodshed made him a better leader than most. I dunno. Skyclan's just...ugh, I really haven't enjoyed reading anything Skyclan related. It still burns me up to this day that Rowanstar decided to choose someone as inexperienced as Tigerheart to be deputy over his own mate, and much more experience clan mate, like Tawnpelt. I personally had no problem with Crowfrost either, but obviously there were some deeper issues on the matters of loyalties in the clan. Where apprentices get away with being so disrespectful, and sparking rebellions that led to even more issues. Blackstar, even if I didn't care for him either, and believed that he didn't deserve to be leader, did actually shape up to become one of the most stable leaders ShadowClan had in a long time. He's only really had issues with Sol from what I remembered? So Rowanstar had big paws to fill, and he didn't live up to it. The other thing is that I honestly would have liked if Rowan was redeemed instead of being used as a scapegoat for Tigerheart's character. The Erins should have made him work harder to be a better leader, and change for the better, something they were also doing for Clear Sky but inconsistencies regressed him horribly. Leafstar didn't have any intention of being spiteful, nor do I think that was the feeling she was giving off either. She was being firm, like a leader should have been from the start. You can even see that through her experience, like you pointed out, not to mention this is a cat who's lost her clanmates one by one, her mate, her kits, and more, but she rose above it and stayed strong, with a very supportive deputy by her side too. While Rowanstar was the complete opposite, and became no longer fit to lead as a leader. Ironically, I said from the start of AVoS that he wasn't that good of a leader, and I guess I kinda called it at this point.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 27, 2017 1:29:41 GMT -5
Sorry, but I agree with her. Rowanstar COULDN'T control his cats. If he could he wouldn't even be in the situation he ended up in, let alone cats siding with Darktail over him. Rowanstar was a bad leader, period. Leafstar did control her cats better than him, and when they made the choice to leave or not, she didn't force them to stay. She kept her cats together and made the lake journey and they came out on top. And even if the other clans didn't want her to stay there it doesn't mean she wouldn't have found another place anyways to support her clan. She actually had a fighting spirit to keep leading her clan, and a damn good set of deputies along the way. While Rowan's decided to leave to chase some tail, lol. Leafstar had to be firm when addressing the whole thing. I wouldn't want to deal with anymore pain in the back sides either, they should either treat her with respect, or leave. Period. She's more firm of a leader than Rowan has been for moons, and this is coming from someone who doesn't even like nor care much about her character either. Rowanstar tried to keep his cats in line, but there's only so much he could have done when his entire Clan was against him. Right from the beginning his entire Clan was against him. No one ever gave him a chance to prove himself, not even the good cats like Tawnypelt. When he tried to role out punishments, no one cared. They just laughed him off and continued to do what they wanted. And since he had no one to help him enforce the rules, he had no back up to make sure what he said was done. His last resort was exile, which only made things worse. No matter what Rowanstar did, his cats just didn't care. They all wanted things their own way, and they didn't care about being punished. Cleaning the elders den or being exiled was nothing but a joke to them, because they had no loyalty to ShadowClan anyways so it meant nothing. So what else could he do? Beat them up to keep them in line? That wouldn't have worked. Leafstar would have been in the same position as Rowanstar if her Clan was behaving the same way. Plus, she is one to talk when she is so relaxed with the rules herself. She's always let her Clan break the rules and get away with it, the only difference is that no one in her Clan behaves the way ShadowClan does and it isn't because Leafstar keeps them in line. If suddenly a bunch of Needletail and Sleekwhisker type cats were born into SkyClan and started pushing her buttons, she wouldn't be able to do anything about them either. They'd just treat her the same way they treated Rowanstar. But here's the thing. Leafstar, back then, was inexperienced. She wasn't born into a clan. She wasn't raised in a clan. She was a loner just like most of modern SkyClan is, ones who still see kittypet life as normal but by the other clan standards it's an abomination. Her cats at least respected her enough not to revolt and be so blatantly disrespectful like ShadowClan cats were, cats who breathed the warrior code for generations. This is also why I pointed out choices of deputy. Sharpclaw was the perfect deputy for Leafstar back in the gorge. He was strict, and more firm, but also able to give Leafstar good advise and help her out as a leader. He even grew to respect her as well despite them starting off on more sour terms. Waspwhisker and Hawkwing are also good stable deputies, when it came to their duties and helping Leafstar. The only good deputy choice Rowan made was Crowfrost, but after his death, Tigerheart was a obvious horrid choice compared to a cat much more experienced like Tawnypelt at the time. Also you don't know if Leafstar would have been in the same position as Rowanstar, that's all what ifs. But what is assured is the fact that both Rowan and Leaf have been through traumatic things as leaders. However only one of the two still had the will to continue leading their clan, and that cat wasn't Rowan.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 27, 2017 7:27:46 GMT -5
Yeah. I can understand your point. Leafstar was more confident and was able to keep her clan together.
My main take away is that I personally do not see Rowanstar as a bad leader. In fact, I see him as one of Shadowclan's best leaders. Yes, he did not have the will to continue leading, but again, if the people do not want you to lead, it's the sign of a more noble leader to willingly step down for the better of the people.
Rowanstar did just that. In my opinion, Rowanstar is far from a bad leader. It was far more the case of clanmates that, at the time, no fair and non-brutal leader could control. It's not fair, because it paints Rowanstar as a bad leader when he honestly, at least to me, is not.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 27, 2017 10:42:48 GMT -5
I don't believe what Rowan did was out of nobility, but out of broken pride. He was literally going to fight with SkyClan over a mere scrap of rabbit, just because of his stubborn pride. And once Tigerheart left, his pride was broken, cause his own kit, and last stability, abandoned him and his clan despite their talk about how much he needed him. It wasn't until Rowan felt true humiliation at the paws of his own clan and Darktail did he even really realize that he was definitely not the cat suitable for the job. There's a difference between stepping down with grace and actually just giving up because of no options.
Nightstar wasn't either, but even I can say that he did his best while he was leader, even if it was short lived and even if he didn't have 9 lives. He was definitely a more suitable cat.
I never had a strong opinion of Rowan, but I knew he wasn't that likable due to his past appearances before leadership. And although I do think it was wrong the Erins used him as a scapegoat, I also still think he has a good portion of blame to bare in this situation.
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