#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 7, 2017 0:02:07 GMT -5
Okay, so complaints of Ivypool being a bad spy are nothing new, but under the circumstances she was in, what are some ways you could think of that would've made her a better spy?
|
|
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 7, 2017 9:30:18 GMT -5
I kinda agree with the above comments....from a narrative view, there's not really much more she could have done without being caught by trainees or spying DF cats...there's also Jay and Lion and how aggressive they were too about the whole thing...
|
|
|
Post by Tas on Nov 7, 2017 9:40:30 GMT -5
I kinda agree with the above comments....from a narrative view, there's not really much more she could have done without being caught by trainees or spying DF cats...there's also Jay and Lion and how aggressive they were too about the whole thing... Not much.
|
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 14:41:29 GMT -5
She certainly does more in the final battle than the Three ever do sooo...
|
|
Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
|
Post by Holly Snow on Nov 7, 2017 14:43:32 GMT -5
She certainly does more in the final battle than the Three ever do sooo... After they pressure her to do stuff. and firestar and hollyleaf do more than her and they aren't even main characters.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 14:44:26 GMT -5
Firestar and Hollyleaf also hold secrets from their clan that could have certainly been helpful when they involve the clan.
And I don't remember them pressuring Ivypool to find the Thunderclan trainees and persuade them to rejoin the fight either.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 14:48:03 GMT -5
To state my actual relevance to the thread, I don't personally see her being able to do more than what she did. I'm leaving it at that, since I can't post all the points on my phone XD
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 14:48:13 GMT -5
Firestar and Hollyleaf also hold secrets from their clan that could have certainly been helpful when they involve the clan. And I don't remember them pressuring Ivypool to find the Thunderclan trainees and persuade them to rejoin the fight either. What secrets did Firestar and Hollyleaf have on fighting the Dark Forest?
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 14:49:52 GMT -5
Firestar and Hollyleaf also hold secrets from their clan that could have certainly been helpful when they involve the clan. And I don't remember them pressuring Ivypool to find the Thunderclan trainees and persuade them to rejoin the fight either. What secrets did Firestar and Hollyleaf have on fighting the Dark Forest? The prophecy of the Three Cats? Which was hidden from everybody based on rather baseless reasons when it clearly involved the entire clan.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 14:57:01 GMT -5
What secrets did Firestar and Hollyleaf have on fighting the Dark Forest? The prophecy of the Three Cats? Which was hidden from everybody based on rather baseless reasons when it clearly involved the entire clan. You are missing the point. It was still Ivypool's duty to report to the Three. She made a promise and she lied to the Three about the Dark Forest. She still had information to tell, especially in TLH, when Brokenstar was telling the others where to strike. Being watched is not an excuse. She promised to risk her own life the moment she became a warrior. Being forced to spy is still no excuse. She may not have wanted it but in the end she still agreed to report them everything. She is a coward and she did not do her job. Cats were suspicious of Ivypool. She foolishly gave herself away multiple times. She is not a good character or a good spy.
|
|
|
Post by gonxkillua on Nov 7, 2017 14:58:04 GMT -5
She certainly does more in the final battle than the Three ever do sooo... Lionblaze saved Shadowclan and Jayfeather reuinted Starclan which gave the clans much more fighters for the final battle.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 14:58:26 GMT -5
Well, I suppose it's perspective then. I think she did fine under her circumstances, others do not. Agree to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 15:00:49 GMT -5
She certainly does more in the final battle than the Three ever do sooo... Lionblaze saved Shadowclan and Jayfeather reuinted Starclan given the clans much more fighters during the final battle. Dovewing also heard cats arriving to give her Clanmates to prepare ahead of time. Ivypool barely did anything, yet people give her credit for something she didn't do. She had info to give out, she had her chance, but she didn't do anything. Ivypool was useless to the story. Yet people blame Dovewing for not listening to the Dark Forest earlier even though that wasn't really her job, lol. The Three didn't ask Dovewing to spy in the Dark Forest; they asked Ivypool, and she has failed to do that.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 15:01:00 GMT -5
What secrets did Firestar and Hollyleaf have on fighting the Dark Forest? The prophecy of the Three Cats? Which was hidden from everybody based on rather baseless reasons when it clearly involved the entire clan. They didn't know what the purpose of the Three was though. I don't think Firestar even knew the Dark Forest existed, let alone that it could rise up and fight the living. I don't think Hollyleaf knew either. So how could they have connected the Three to a problem they didn't even know existed? Firestar didn't find out about this until the last book, and he did tell everyone after he found out.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 15:01:21 GMT -5
Well, I suppose it's perspective then. I think she did fine under her circumstances, others do not. Agree to disagree. Fair enough. These arguments tend to get tiring.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 15:03:55 GMT -5
Lionblaze saved Shadowclan and Jayfeather reuinted Starclan given the clans much more fighters during the final battle. Dovewing also heard cats arriving to give her Clanmates to prepare ahead of time. Ivypool barely did anything, yet people give her credit for something she didn't do. She had info to give out, she had her chance, but she didn't do anything. Ivypool was useless to the story. Yet people blame Dovewing for not listening to the Dark Forest earlier even though that wasn't really her job, lol. The Three didn't ask Dovewing to spy in the Dark Forest; they asked Ivypool, and she has failed to do that. That comes to another issue I had. If Dovewing did have those powers, why did they not use her more? I'm not saying Ivypool was sucessful in giving the Three names of the cats in the Dark Forest, but there were so many times that I felt like the Three could have used their powers more. I guess it's bad writing, but I highly dislike PoT and OOTS so I apologize if I forget any information. I hated reading most of it anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 15:04:41 GMT -5
Dovewing also heard cats arriving to give her Clanmates to prepare ahead of time. Ivypool barely did anything, yet people give her credit for something she didn't do. She had info to give out, she had her chance, but she didn't do anything. Ivypool was useless to the story. Yet people blame Dovewing for not listening to the Dark Forest earlier even though that wasn't really her job, lol. The Three didn't ask Dovewing to spy in the Dark Forest; they asked Ivypool, and she has failed to do that. That comes to another issue I had. If Dovewing did have those powers, why did they not use her more? I'm not saying Ivypool was sucessful in giving the Three names of the cats in the Dark Forest, but there were so many times that I felt like the Three could have used their powers more. I guess it's bad writing, but I highly dislike PoT and OOTS so I apologize if I forget any information. I hated reading mosot of it anyway. Because the Erins can't write.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 15:06:21 GMT -5
One thing I will agree with Ivypool fans, however: Lionblaze and Jayfeather were jerks. Especially Jayfeather. At least Lionblaze tried to be gentle with Dovewing at times. Jayfeather was an impatient punk, pressuring Ivypool to he a spy and forcing Dovewing to accept the prophecy. Why do fans like him? Hell if I know.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 15:06:45 GMT -5
Well whatever Erin meeting created the character of Littlecloud, I praise them for that lol.
But yes. At least with those two arcs, it was hair-pulling.
|
|
Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
|
Post by Mayflower on Nov 7, 2017 15:12:54 GMT -5
Dovewing also heard cats arriving to give her Clanmates to prepare ahead of time. Ivypool barely did anything, yet people give her credit for something she didn't do. She had info to give out, she had her chance, but she didn't do anything. Ivypool was useless to the story. Yet people blame Dovewing for not listening to the Dark Forest earlier even though that wasn't really her job, lol. The Three didn't ask Dovewing to spy in the Dark Forest; they asked Ivypool, and she has failed to do that. That comes to another issue I had. If Dovewing did have those powers, why did they not use her more? I'm not saying Ivypool was sucessful in giving the Three names of the cats in the Dark Forest, but there were so many times that I felt like the Three could have used their powers more. I guess it's bad writing, but I highly dislike PoT and OOTS so I apologize if I forget any information. I hated reading most of it anyway. See, I think the Erins realized they had given Dovewing a power that makes no sense. Logistics aside for having far-off hearing that reaches the literal cat version of hell, it's almost like the battle came and then they realized, "Uhhh...what, exactly can she do to help?" because there was no sign of her ever attempting to hear the Dark Forest. If so, she could've just as well been a spy or given information. Her role was ridiculous. It seems like the power sounded cool enough and "fitting," but then they had to scramble to figure out where, exactly, it fit. In the end, it was stupid af.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 15:20:50 GMT -5
This would change the story a bit, but here's some ideas on what Ivypool could have done.
- If she didn't want to tell Lionblaze and Jayfeather who was training in the Dark Forest, she could have told Dovewing. Dovewing's powers would allow her to moniter everyone, and they could start to figure out who could be trusted and who couldn't.
- Ivypool could have told Firestar what the Dark Forest was planning, and have him start preparing everyone. Ivypool wouldn't have had to tell him why she was in the Dark Forest, but just that she ended up there sometimes without control and watched what they were doing. Jayfeather and Lionblaze could vouch for her, because they also went to the Dark Forest.
- After Firestar is informed, Lionblaze and Ivypool could start training cats. Lionblaze could work with the warriors, while Ivypool worked with the younger cats. She could also have Birchfall, Blossomfall, and Thornclaw help. Maybe even Bramblestar could help.
- Dovewing could talk to Tigerheart and have him subliminally help his Clan mates. He'd have to be tricky about it though because of Redwillow.
- Lionblaze and Hollyleaf could have used their knowledge of the tunnels to prepare a battle strategy. Hollyleaf could have lured Dark Forest cats into the tunnel and gotten them lost.
And then in TLH, she could confess the truth to everyone. They would be worried, but at that point they would have months of training and preparation to back them up. Just little things like this could have gone a long way rather than keep everything to herself until the last minute
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 7, 2017 16:40:48 GMT -5
Wait...didn't Dovewing with hold information about who was in the Dark Forest too, for literally the same reason Ivypool did...
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 7, 2017 16:43:55 GMT -5
Wait...didn't Dovewing with hold information about who was in the Dark Forest too, for literally the same reason Ivypool did... I only remember her not telling the leaders who was in the Dark Forest, which is exactly what Ivypool did if that's what you mean.
|
|
Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
|
Post by Mayflower on Nov 7, 2017 16:55:13 GMT -5
Wait...didn't Dovewing with hold information about who was in the Dark Forest too, for literally the same reason Ivypool did... I only remember her not telling the leaders who was in the Dark Forest, which is exactly what Ivypool did if that's what you mean. This happened when the leaders met on the island, right? Willowshine told Dovewing to listen to the DF to prove that Firestar wasn't lying. When she reported what she saw, one of the leaders demanded she tell him who it was talking, and the others joined in, but she shrank back and...said something about how they were misguided, I think? She refused to say names. So kinda the same deal.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 7, 2017 16:55:20 GMT -5
Wait...didn't Dovewing with hold information about who was in the Dark Forest too, for literally the same reason Ivypool did... Lionblaze and Brambleclaw both literally trained there as well, and they could have also told Firestar that just maybe there's a Dark Forest where they take cats in their dreams and perhaps then something could have been said to prevent cats from Thunderclan from literally training in hell? Like, maybe a "Hey clan, if Tigerstar and his family come to you in dreams, here's a reminder that they are literally murderers who tried to take over clans and kill specific groups of cats, lol, might not be good to agree to train there." Maybe mention that to other leaders? I don't know, all these inconsistencies and information witholding get me shook.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 7, 2017 16:58:01 GMT -5
Wait...didn't Dovewing with hold information about who was in the Dark Forest too, for literally the same reason Ivypool did... I only remember her not telling the leaders who was in the Dark Forest, which is exactly what Ivypool did if that's what you mean. Wait, Jayfeather knew too?? When Yellowfang, Spottedleaf and him went to spy on them. Okay wait a second seriously, there were much more better options as spies than forcing Ivypool to do it. Dovewing could literally hear all the way to cat hell. Jayfeather can go into anyone's dreams, and walk among StarClan and the Dark Forest,??? Also StarClan was AWARE the DF cats were on the rise, why the flip didn't they go to the medicine cats about it moons ago??
|
|
Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
|
Post by Mayflower on Nov 7, 2017 17:01:18 GMT -5
Wait...didn't Dovewing with hold information about who was in the Dark Forest too, for literally the same reason Ivypool did... Lionblaze and Brambleclaw both literally trained there as well, and they could have also told Firestar that just maybe there's a Dark Forest where they take cats in their dreams and perhaps then something could have been said to prevent cats from Thunderclan from literally training in hell? Like, maybe a "Hey clan, if Tigerstar and his family come to you in dreams, here's a reminder that they are literally murderers who tried to take over clans and kill specific groups of cats, lol, might not be good to agree to train there." Maybe mention that to other leaders? I don't know, all these inconsistencies and information witholding get me shook. Funny enough, if you all remember, Brambleclaw could've stopped all this by telling Firestar about the Dark Forest sometime after Sunset/before The Sight lol then Firestar would've had some inkling. I mean, Brambleclaw treated that whole My Half-Brother And I Totally Met With Our Father In A Gloomy, Scary Forest And Plotted To Murder You as a one-off...? Did Firestar never wonder how many times they'd been meeting to come up with that plan? Or how they were meeting? And why didn't Brambleclaw think it was important information that Firestar's worst enemy and kitty Hitler walked in his dreams, and was obviously not from StarClan? The same goes for Lionblaze. Why did everyone think this was totally harmless information?! It's not like these totally dead cats who were evil/murderous in life and not from StarClan came to you, a living, breathing cat, and trained you to do evil stuff or anything! Methinks these cats are dumb as hell. So many characters played a role in the Dark Forest rising. This was going on long before Ivypool was born.
|
|