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Post by Basement Cat on Sept 17, 2017 21:59:11 GMT -5
I'm getting rather irritated when someone brings up an argument, and then someone else interprets it differently. We are not saying single she-cat = strong female, and queen = weak female. Some of you are really jumping to conclusions.
Nobody is saying that at all. We don't think Ivypool is going to magically be weak and out of character if she gets a mate and has kits. We're saying that based on her experiences, personality, behavior, and the overall narrative, that is difficult to suspend our disbelief that she would get a mate and have kits. We're saying based on her character and the narrative, it would make more logical sense for her to be alone and to herself. That is who we see her character as. And apparently for some people, that means that we think a female with a husband/mate and kits is 'weak.' That jump between these two things doesn't make sense.
I'm seeing a lot of filling in blanks. There's no feminism to argue about. So I don't understand why people are trying to point out things that aren't even there.
And, to be blunt, this is a very dark series. Characters die. Every single warrior has to be strong and independent. Pretty much every single she-cat is treated the same as their male peers, expected to do the same jobs, and expected to follow the same rules. There is no logical reason to say any of them are 'weak'. There's no point to rant about sexism when both sexes are treated equally within story (Author bias is whole other can of worms). The nature of the series doesn't allow for weak characters. They tend to die off.
Just my two cents.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Ivy x Fern
Sept 17, 2017 22:09:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 17, 2017 22:09:20 GMT -5
Honestly, by this point, I just don't care about Ivy x Fern. I happen to agree with both points—Ivypool can still be a strong, independent cat even while in a relationship (even though I don't think anyone genuinely thinks that, though the wording of some posts might give the wrong idea), but the way it's being handled is rather poor given that Ivypool never gave any indication of wanting a mate before Fernsong came along and there aren't really any stereotypes or gender roles to break when it comes to this series, so it just comes off as poor writing and a bit of a weird choice in general.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 18, 2017 2:01:59 GMT -5
If Ivypool does end up as "Weak" or becomes a character that's a shadow of what Ivypool once was, after she becomes a queen with a mate and kits, then that's just bad writing. And the ones to blame for that would be the Erins.
But that's probably exactly why Kate wants Fernsong to be Ivypool's possible mate. Because with a cat like him, she wouldn't end up like that, and would still be Ivypool, the one we're used to, nothing will change, she'll still be the same cat, just she'll have a mate and kits. It's also not like she'll stay a Queen forever or something, she'll return to her warrior duties like normal after her kits are old enough to be apprentices.
If anything we're just seeing more of Ivypool's character. There was never a moment, especially from a narrative view, where Ivypool indicated she never wanted a mate or kits, period, just because it wasn't her focus or because she was too young to care for that type of thing anyways.
I hardly see anything wrong with a she-cat not focusing on romance when she's only an apprentice, or even a young warrior. But as of right now Ivypool is one of the more higher status cats in the clan, and probably the strongest, who does her duties just fine, and has the highest potential of being deputy. That won't be ruined or change if the Erins continue to write her normally, and not downgrade her character over a mate and kits.
The only argument I see sense in, is Ivy and Fern not having kits as of right now. Where as I don't see a problem with them having a family one day, or even being mates, I don't think TC needs more cats, unless like others have said, the Erins plan to purge cats. But that probably would lack plot wise since we barely know any of the other BG cats so we're not emotionally attached to them, since the only thing we can go off by them is their name, literally. This is also actually why I was hoping Ivypool wouldn't have kits until at least implied by the end of AVoS, after the numbers have died down a bit.
I think TC cats will either join SkyClan or ShadowClan, or maybe cats will die, who knows, but there's wayyy too much, and this makes it hard to develop other characters. That is my only qualm with all this.
Ironically enough, and yeah I'm bringing in Dovewing, I think out of the two of them, she should have been the one that was single. From a young age she was pushed into romantic tropes when written into the narrative of the story, on top of that having a large plot pushed onto her as well, the prophecy. She didn't exactly develop properly as a character either. She became conflicted with her feelings, toward Bumblestripe and Tigerheart. She left them both at one point. One of them became glaring obvious about being jealousy, the other became desperate in wanting to get back together and didn't give her much room. However the one she chose in the end resulted in her breaking the warrior code, abandoning her kin and clan, and going on a ridiculous journey while pregnant, and forcing the only pillar of stability ShadowClan had, Tigerheart, to go after her. All her relationships have caused is nothing but trouble, and she would have been better off alone since her character didn't bode well in the romantic department.
While Ivypool on the other head, especially after the war and leaving the Dark Forest, has only gotten better as a character. The only qualms she had was her sister breaking the code, and trying to keep her self. Other than that she was a well respected warrior with a rounded development under her belt. If she wants to be involved in a romantic relationship, I don't see any reasons why not? The Erins never exactly gave us a reasons why she shouldn't be. Considering she's been manipulated, preyed on, beaten and abused, and treated like an traitor withing her own clan, it's nice to finally see her get a break and make her own choices for once.
And personally, I don't think Ivypool has to give any indications she wanted a mate before Fernsong came along. Like I said before, she was too young the majority of AVoS, and then after that she focused on the war. Following that was sickness, the flood, and so on. Fernsong and Ivypool have at least have implied development since he's become a warrior, during the time skip, or beginning of AVoS. Just because someone desires a mate doesn't mean they go out and suddenly look for a suitable cat, that's not how it works, and honestly just gives off Night x Crow vibes. She feared she'd be too old and wouldn't have kits, and then Crowfeather offered to be her mate. With Ivypool it seems more like the case that she and Fernsong seem to click, and hit it off. Which is why I HC Ivypool as grayromantic.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Sept 18, 2017 13:51:44 GMT -5
If Ivypool does end up as "Weak" or becomes a character that's a shadow of what Ivypool once was, after she becomes a queen with a mate and kits, then that's just bad writing. And the ones to blame for that would be the Erins. But that's probably exactly why Kate wants Fernsong to be Ivypool's possible mate. Because with a cat like him, she wouldn't end up like that, and would still be Ivypool, the one we're used to, nothing will change, she'll still be the same cat, just she'll have a mate and kits. It's also not like she'll stay a Queen forever or something, she'll return to her warrior duties like normal after her kits are old enough to be apprentices. If anything we're just seeing more of Ivypool's character. There was never a moment, especially from a narrative view, where Ivypool indicated she never wanted a mate or kits, period, just because it wasn't her focus or because she was too young to care for that type of thing anyways. I hardly see anything wrong with a she-cat not focusing on romance when she's only an apprentice, or even a young warrior. But as of right now Ivypool is one of the more higher status cats in the clan, and probably the strongest, who does her duties just fine, and has the highest potential of being deputy. That won't be ruined or change if the Erins continue to write her normally, and not downgrade her character over a mate and kits. The only argument I see sense in, is Ivy and Fern not having kits as of right now. Where as I don't see a problem with them having a family one day, or even being mates, I don't think TC needs more cats, unless like others have said, the Erins plan to purge cats. But that probably would lack plot wise since we barely know any of the other BG cats so we're not emotionally attached to them, since the only thing we can go off by them is their name, literally. This is also actually why I was hoping Ivypool wouldn't have kits until at least implied by the end of AVoS, after the numbers have died down a bit. I think TC cats will either join SkyClan or ShadowClan, or maybe cats will die, who knows, but there's wayyy too much, and this makes it hard to develop other characters. That is my only qualm with all this. Ironically enough, and yeah I'm bringing in Dovewing, I think out of the two of them, she should have been the one that was single. From a young age she was pushed into romantic tropes when written into the narrative of the story, on top of that having a large plot pushed onto her as well, the prophecy. She didn't exactly develop properly as a character either. She became conflicted with her feelings, toward Bumblestripe and Tigerheart. She left them both at one point. One of them became glaring obvious about being jealousy, the other became desperate in wanting to get back together and didn't give her much room. However the one she chose in the end resulted in her breaking the warrior code, abandoning her kin and clan, and going on a ridiculous journey while pregnant, and forcing the only pillar of stability ShadowClan had, Tigerheart, to go after her. All her relationships have caused is nothing but trouble, and she would have been better off alone since her character didn't bode well in the romantic department. While Ivypool on the other head, especially after the war and leaving the Dark Forest, has only gotten better as a character. The only qualms she had was her sister breaking the code, and trying to keep her self. Other than that she was a well respected warrior with a rounded development under her belt. If she wants to be involved in a romantic relationship, I don't see any reasons why not? The Erins never exactly gave us a reasons why she shouldn't be. Considering she's been manipulated, preyed on, beaten and abused, and treated like an traitor withing her own clan, it's nice to finally see her get a break and make her own choices for once. And personally, I don't think Ivypool has to give any indications she wanted a mate before Fernsong came along. Like I said before, she was too young the majority of AVoS, and then after that she focused on the war. Following that was sickness, the flood, and so on. Fernsong and Ivypool have at least have implied development since he's become a warrior, during the time skip, or beginning of AVoS. Just because someone desires a mate doesn't mean they go out and suddenly look for a suitable cat, that's not how it works, and honestly just gives off Night x Crow vibes. She feared she'd be too old and wouldn't have kits, and then Crowfeather offered to be her mate. With Ivypool it seems more like the case that she and Fernsong seem to click, and hit it off. Which is why I HC Ivypool as grayromantic. Thank you!! You explained it much better than I did.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Sept 18, 2017 13:56:15 GMT -5
Honestly, by this point, I just don't care about Ivy x Fern. I happen to agree with both points—Ivypool can still be a strong, independent cat even while in a relationship (even though I don't think anyone genuinely thinks that, though the wording of some posts might give the wrong idea), but the way it's being handled is rather poor given that Ivypool never gave any indication of wanting a mate before Fernsong came along and there aren't really any stereotypes or gender roles to break when it comes to this series, so it just comes off as poor writing and a bit of a weird choice in general. I'm the opposite. I didn't care about it before TAS, but felt the need to defend it after all of the incessant bashing started.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 18, 2017 20:25:00 GMT -5
Honestly, by this point, I just don't care about Ivy x Fern. I happen to agree with both points—Ivypool can still be a strong, independent cat even while in a relationship (even though I don't think anyone genuinely thinks that, though the wording of some posts might give the wrong idea), but the way it's being handled is rather poor given that Ivypool never gave any indication of wanting a mate before Fernsong came along and there aren't really any stereotypes or gender roles to break when it comes to this series, so it just comes off as poor writing and a bit of a weird choice in general. I'm the opposite. I didn't care about it before TAS, but felt the need to defend it after all of the incessant bashing started. The amount of hate it's been getting it just crazy, I've seen more of it than TigerDove bashing lately. Eventually I found myself defending it as well, I have no idea why people are so angry at a potentially normal, okay, and healthy relationship possibly happening compared to the more focused recent romantic plots.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 18, 2017 20:35:43 GMT -5
I'm the opposite. I didn't care about it before TAS, but felt the need to defend it after all of the incessant bashing started. The amount of hate it's been getting it just crazy, I've seen more of it than TigerDove bashing lately. Eventually I found myself defending it as well, I have no idea why people are so angry at a potentially normal, okay, and healthy relationship possibly happening compared to the more focused recent romantic plots. The reason people are dismissing it really has less to do with Ivypool getting a mate at all, and more to do with how random it seems. Ivypool never took much of an interest in finding a mate at all, and while you could argue that she could've given it more thought as she got older, the fact that there's never any indication of this prior to TAS is why it may come off as poor writing, background character now or not.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 19, 2017 1:32:29 GMT -5
The amount of hate it's been getting it just crazy, I've seen more of it than TigerDove bashing lately. Eventually I found myself defending it as well, I have no idea why people are so angry at a potentially normal, okay, and healthy relationship possibly happening compared to the more focused recent romantic plots. The reason people are dismissing it really has less to do with Ivypool getting a mate at all, and more to do with how random it seems. Ivypool never took much of an interest in finding a mate at all, and while you could argue that she could've given it more thought as she got older, the fact that there's never any indication of this prior to TAS is why it may come off as poor writing, background character now or not. But again, considering the circumstances of her character it's understandable if she didn't show indications before. Again, she was a kit in the first book, an apprentice for more than half of OotS, and then had to focus on the Dark Forest, what followed was sickness and the flood. It's not that there wasn't any indications or no interest, it was just that she had other priorities, she has also never shown being opposed to not wanting a mate either. And when she found out about Bumble and Dove she was actually really happy and supportive and thought they'd have the cutest kits. That alone was enough to show she's fond at the idea of kits of her kin. During the time Ivypool and Fernsong seem to interact it's mostly peaceful, because there's a time skip between BrS and AVoS. Peace. And time for her to be able to experience other things she's open to as a character, that she didn't have time before, like the possibility of a mate or kit. I don't think it's that people think her getting a mate is random from the narrative point, it's just that people are dismissing other points about Ivypool's character in favor of their perspective. Looking at her from a 90 degree and not the full 360. Another thing is that even with Dovewing, and her character in OotS, she ended things with Tigerheart, because she had to focus on the battle at hand. She didn't have time for him, or any romance between him, but then chose Bumblestripe only after the war was over. She prioritized too, just not as well as Ivypool did. I do think it all really comes down to the Erins and their poor writing, but some people have to understand not all authors do the whole "Show not Tell" type of narrative, and considering how old this series is, fans should be used to this by now. But it seems just because Ivypool is involved, it's being blown way too out of proportion.
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