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Post by cappuccinokitty on Jan 19, 2020 5:20:38 GMT -5
Just to clear something up, I’ve been confused about it for a while now - Was Hollyleaf actually punished for what she did? I see a lot of ‘self exile’ comments, but I have very mixed opinions. Whilst in Hollyleafs Story, she experiences a lot of guilt and regret, and I guess you could argue she did sacrifice herself for a cat she hardly knew. Whilst in the tunnels, she spent a long time both physically and mentally recovering. But then, she was never directly punished for murdering Ashfur, instead, Brambleclaw saved her hide and it was never revealed. When she isolated herself, there was nothing stopping her from returning, leaving her family to face persecution from even clanmates. And not just did she kill a clanmate, she threatened to kill her mother. What do you think? I don’t really know anymore tbh
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2020 5:36:46 GMT -5
No, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2020 10:28:18 GMT -5
Not at all. I'm not sure if she should have been too badly punished for killing Ashfur, since he tried to kill her first, but she should be held accountable for trying to kill Leafpool.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jan 19, 2020 11:14:15 GMT -5
If she had told the truth about what happened to ThunderClan, no way would Firestar have punished her. She woulda been hailed a hero, like Dustpelt did in TFW Nnnno she wouldn't.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Jan 19, 2020 11:53:28 GMT -5
If she had told the truth about what happened to ThunderClan, no way would Firestar have punished her. She woulda been hailed a hero, like Dustpelt did in TFW Nnnno she wouldn't. Why wouldnt she? She saved Firestar's, Leafpool's, and Sandstorm's life. If she told the Clan about how he tried to kill her, the Clan would thank her for keeping them safe from his madness
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Jan 19, 2020 13:30:57 GMT -5
Nope
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 19, 2020 17:40:37 GMT -5
It's always seemed to me that the people who say Hollyleaf's self-exile was a punishment are the same people who say Leafpool losing her job was a punishment. I don't consider either of these to be punishments, as they were both self-inflicted. That being said, I don't think either of them should have gotten anything more as an actual punishment (other than Leafpool actually staying a warrior), because even though their struggles were self-inflicted, it does even out the bad things they did.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jan 20, 2020 13:20:16 GMT -5
No.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 22, 2020 1:08:23 GMT -5
She was never punished, and that honestly still annoys me.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 24, 2020 19:26:29 GMT -5
I think she was. Just because it was self-inflicted by running away doesn't make it any less of a punishment in my eyes.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 25, 2020 7:13:46 GMT -5
I'm curious-- what exactly does she need to be punished for? Killing Ashfur? He tried to kill her and her siblings, admitted to plotting with Hawkfrost, and trying to kill Firestar (and succeeding to take one of his lives). I may be remembering TFW wrong but didn't they mention Ashfur'a crimes in some way and others legit were like 'good riddance'? Trying to feed Leafpool deathberries? I always read that scene as someone very desperate making an empty gesture out of their personal pain and agony and irrationality. Kinda like when I threatened my teacher with the box cutters I found in his desk because I wasn't told I had detention. Dude still remains one of my favorite teachers to this day and I know I was one of his favorite students and the incident happened due to me being at a heightened emotional state and being irrational. Granted, I did get a saturday school because of it but all that meant was I went into school for four hours on Saturday and read books. So, maybe. Or was it the gathering thing? Which, I mean, isn't necessarily a crime to be punished for while it is def inappropriate behavior. Just wondering because everyone has a different idea on Hollyleaf's personal sins. When it comes to the case of Ashfur, she shouldn't have tried to take justice into her own hands (paws?) the way she did. Did he attempt to kill her and her siblings before? Yes. But it really baffles my mind as to why none of them, literally none of them, reported him for it, in my opinion it was incredibly stupid. Whether the truth got out or not, they should have reported him, and it would have been four cat's words against one. But anyways, even if all of this is the case, Hollyleaf broke the code, and killed Ashfur, it was premeditated, and done in cold blood, not self-defense. If she killed him during the fire scene, then yes, if he was the one that found her instead and tried to kill her then yes. But that's not what happened. However, ironically, this is how Brambleclaw spun it, to garner sympathy for her. He lies saying that it was Ashfur who attacked Hollyleaf and she was protecting herself, to that they said "good riddance" because in their eyes he's now a traitor thanks to Bramble's lie. He was a traitor regardless, but now he was one for the wrong reasons in the eyes of the other cats. When in reality Hollyleaf murdered him to silence him about their dirty family secret, only to turn around and tell all the clans later. The deathberry scene was wrong, no matter how it's viewed. Think of it this way, if Darkstripe had been caught in the act of attempting to feed Sorrelkit deathberries, attempting, would that make the situation any better? No. He still would have attempted to do it, and in canon, he did do it. It's similar to this situation, but neither cat is naive and knows what their actions will do. Hollyleaf intentionally went looking for the deathberries, waited for Leafpool to return, then blocked her path out of the den and threaten her. She told her own mother to eat the deathberries, she wanted her to take her own life right before her eyes, and if she didn't she threatened to force her by unsheathing her claws. She even says she's killed before and she'll do it again. It doesn't matter if her if she's being desperate, it doesn't change that she wanted to watch her own mother suffer to death. And even though Leafpool wasn't a medicine cat anymore at the time, she's still one of her clanmates, and her actions can even come off as similar to how Ashfur blocked their way of escape and was ready to let them all die. Speaking out at the gathering is punishable imo, especially when her own leader told her to stop, but the other leaders encouraged her to keep speaking. Not only did her stunt cause utter chaos in the gathering, but it also dragged ThunderClan's reputation through the mud, an later causes even more wild events in the long run. But Hollyleaf doesn't have to put up with any of the heat that followed after this because she ran away from her problems. She abandoned her clan, and ran away, and pretended to be dead as far as they knew for many many moons. Even though she got her, she did recover and had several opportunities to go home and face the music, see the consequences of her actions. But she doesn't, and the only way she eventually did come back was because a cat recognized her when she tried to run off again. I don't think she has any excuse for what she did, even if I don't think it's entirely her fault, the blame can still land on other cats, at least part of it. It still doesn't change that some of her actions were highly inappropriate and caused a lot of damage. I personally don't see how her running away from her problems and leaving her family behind to face the blunt of the backlash is a punishment. Even Leafpool was technically punished more than her, because she lost her position and faced persecution for her actions, and had to spend moons getting back the respect of her clanmates along with her position. And her punishment was self-inflicted too, and she didn't run from it.
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Post by maggotpaw on Jan 25, 2020 14:32:09 GMT -5
Trying to feed Leafpool deathberries? I always read that scene as someone very desperate making an empty gesture out of their personal pain and agony and irrationality. Kinda like when I threatened my teacher with the box cutters I found in his desk because I wasn't told I had detention. Dude still remains one of my favorite teachers to this day and I know I was one of his favorite students and the incident happened due to me being at a heightened emotional state and being irrational. Granted, I did get a saturday school because of it but all that meant was I went into school for four hours on Saturday and read books. So, maybe. Umm... the person that's being threatened has no idea that their would-be assailant is just "making an empty gesture" at that moment. It's still very traumatizing?? And deserves some form of discipline??
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Jan 25, 2020 22:06:44 GMT -5
Trying to feed Leafpool deathberries? I always read that scene as someone very desperate making an empty gesture out of their personal pain and agony and irrationality. Kinda like when I threatened my teacher with the box cutters I found in his desk because I wasn't told I had detention. Dude still remains one of my favorite teachers to this day and I know I was one of his favorite students and the incident happened due to me being at a heightened emotional state and being irrational. Granted, I did get a saturday school because of it but all that meant was I went into school for four hours on Saturday and read books. So, maybe. Umm... the person that's being threatened has no idea that their would-be assailant is just "making an empty gesture" at that moment. It's still very traumatizing?? And deserves some form of discipline?? I'm not saying that it was a great/good/okay thing to do nor am I trying to justify it. I'm just saying how I read the scene? Like obviously it's not a good thing to do. I'm solely saying I don't think she actually had murderous intent as part of how I see the scene. I'm not making an argument for or against any of these cases. Just showing my personal thoughts on them as added commentary. edit: also I've been meaning to say this but how the hell did you get that profile picture? Did you make it? Find it? If so, where? It's absolutely terrifying. In a good way, I mean.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Jan 25, 2020 22:08:25 GMT -5
I'm curious-- what exactly does she need to be punished for? Killing Ashfur? He tried to kill her and her siblings, admitted to plotting with Hawkfrost, and trying to kill Firestar (and succeeding to take one of his lives). I may be remembering TFW wrong but didn't they mention Ashfur'a crimes in some way and others legit were like 'good riddance'? Trying to feed Leafpool deathberries? I always read that scene as someone very desperate making an empty gesture out of their personal pain and agony and irrationality. Kinda like when I threatened my teacher with the box cutters I found in his desk because I wasn't told I had detention. Dude still remains one of my favorite teachers to this day and I know I was one of his favorite students and the incident happened due to me being at a heightened emotional state and being irrational. Granted, I did get a saturday school because of it but all that meant was I went into school for four hours on Saturday and read books. So, maybe. Or was it the gathering thing? Which, I mean, isn't necessarily a crime to be punished for while it is def inappropriate behavior. Just wondering because everyone has a different idea on Hollyleaf's personal sins. When it comes to the case of Ashfur, she shouldn't have tried to take justice into her own hands (paws?) the way she did. Did he attempt to kill her and her siblings before? Yes. But it really baffles my mind as to why none of them, literally none of them, reported him for it, in my opinion it was incredibly stupid. Whether the truth got out or not, they should have reported him, and it would have been four cat's words against one. But anyways, even if all of this is the case, Hollyleaf broke the code, and killed Ashfur, it was premeditated, and done in cold blood, not self-defense. If she killed him during the fire scene, then yes, if he was the one that found her instead and tried to kill her then yes. But that's not what happened. However, ironically, this is how Brambleclaw spun it, to garner sympathy for her. He lies saying that it was Ashfur who attacked Hollyleaf and she was protecting herself, to that they said "good riddance" because in their eyes he's now a traitor thanks to Bramble's lie. He was a traitor regardless, but now he was one for the wrong reasons in the eyes of the other cats. When in reality Hollyleaf murdered him to silence him about their dirty family secret, only to turn around and tell all the clans later. The deathberry scene was wrong, no matter how it's viewed. Think of it this way, if Darkstripe had been caught in the act of attempting to feed Sorrelkit deathberries, attempting, would that make the situation any better? No. He still would have attempted to do it, and in canon, he did do it. It's similar to this situation, but neither cat is naive and knows what their actions will do. Hollyleaf intentionally went looking for the deathberries, waited for Leafpool to return, then blocked her path out of the den and threaten her. She told her own mother to eat the deathberries, she wanted her to take her own life right before her eyes, and if she didn't she threatened to force her by unsheathing her claws. She even says she's killed before and she'll do it again. It doesn't matter if her if she's being desperate, it doesn't change that she wanted to watch her own mother suffer to death. And even though Leafpool wasn't a medicine cat anymore at the time, she's still one of her clanmates, and her actions can even come off as similar to how Ashfur blocked their way of escape and was ready to let them all die. Speaking out at the gathering is punishable imo, especially when her own leader told her to stop, but the other leaders encouraged her to keep speaking. Not only did her stunt cause utter chaos in the gathering, but it also dragged ThunderClan's reputation through the mud, an later causes even more wild events in the long run. But Hollyleaf doesn't have to put up with any of the heat that followed after this because she ran away from her problems. She abandoned her clan, and ran away, and pretended to be dead as far as they knew for many many moons. Even though she got her, she did recover and had several opportunities to go home and face the music, see the consequences of her actions. But she doesn't, and the only way she eventually did come back was because a cat recognized her when she tried to run off again. I don't think she has any excuse for what she did, even if I don't think it's entirely her fault, the blame can still land on other cats, at least part of it. It still doesn't change that some of her actions were highly inappropriate and caused a lot of damage. I personally don't see how her running away from her problems and leaving her family behind to face the blunt of the backlash is a punishment. Even Leafpool was technically punished more than her, because she lost her position and faced persecution for her actions, and had to spend moons getting back the respect of her clanmates along with her position. And her punishment was self-inflicted too, and she didn't run from it. Cool thanks for answering. There's just such a broad scope on Hollyleaf's actions during that time that I'm never really sure which one people are talking about.
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