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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 10:54:26 GMT -5
If Mudclaw had been leader, do you think he would have let Crowfeather back into WindClan?
Also, how do you think he would have handled Breezepelt training in the DF?
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Post by ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs on Sept 21, 2019 3:36:57 GMT -5
Mudclaw and Onestar are basically the same by the time they’re leaders. The only difference here is that Mudclaw is specifically working with Hawkfrost, so not a lot of difference - only that RiverClan and WindClan are in some partnership.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 8:25:34 GMT -5
Mudclaw would have been a little busy with the massive war he starts on Hawkfrost's behalf. I assume he'd take Crowfeather back though, he'd need all the fresh bodies he can get. How would he handle Breezepelt in the DF? I doubt he'd care. He worked with Hawkfrost when the latter wanted to murder or exile Leopardstar and Mistyfoot, his morals are a bit lax.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 9:06:34 GMT -5
ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs vectoring34Well, not exactly, because if Tallstar hadn't unfairly taken his position away from him, he wouldn't have been working with Hawkfrost in the first place. Mudclaw's a huge a-hole, yes, but he's still a very loyal warrior, who puts his clan above all else. Sure, him starting a rebellion looks like he isn't loyal, but he wasn't there when Tallstar made Onewhisker deputy. The only cats who were, were two ThunderClan cats, and Onewhisker, who was super friendly with ThunderClan at the time. For all he knew, they were lying about it. It wasn't even him who had the idea to start a rebellion in the first place, it was Webfoot anyway. And Mudclaw had most of WindClan on his side, so he was not the only one who was thinking this. Despite everything that happened, he was still fighting with StarClan against the Dark Forest.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 21, 2019 9:38:43 GMT -5
Mudclaw would probably have been more strict with both Crowfeather and Breezepelt, he takes loyalty seriously.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 9:53:10 GMT -5
ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs vectoring34 Well, not exactly, because if Tallstar hadn't unfairly taken his position away from him, he wouldn't have been working with Hawkfrost in the first place. Mudclaw's a huge a-hole, yes, but he's still a very loyal warrior, who puts his clan above all else. Sure, him starting a rebellion looks like he isn't loyal, but he wasn't there when Tallstar made Onewhisker deputy. The only cats who were, were two ThunderClan cats, and Onewhisker, who was super friendly with ThunderClan at the time. For all he knew, they were lying about it. It wasn't even him who had the idea to start a rebellion in the first place, it was Webfoot anyway. And Mudclaw had most of WindClan on his side, so he was not the only one who was thinking this. Despite everything that happened, he was still fighting with StarClan against the Dark Forest. Someone who deputizes a Riverclan cat and swears to devote his clan to Riverclan politics puts his clan above everything else? The only thing Mudclaw puts over everything else is himself. Not to mention almost getting Windclan killed on the journey because he was reckless. No, Mudclaw did not have most of Windclan on his side, otherwise he wouldn't have needed Hawkfrost and his connections to help back him up. He was leading an unpopular revolt with help from Riverclan and Shadowclan, not a good look. Fighting against the Dark Forest doesn't give him a pass for what he did in life. Blackstar fought them as well and he was a spiritually weak leader who almost ruined his clan, not even considering his various crimes prior.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 9:58:48 GMT -5
ᴄᴏɴɪ﹣ғᴇʀᴏᴜs vectoring34 Well, not exactly, because if Tallstar hadn't unfairly taken his position away from him, he wouldn't have been working with Hawkfrost in the first place. Mudclaw's a huge a-hole, yes, but he's still a very loyal warrior, who puts his clan above all else. Sure, him starting a rebellion looks like he isn't loyal, but he wasn't there when Tallstar made Onewhisker deputy. The only cats who were, were two ThunderClan cats, and Onewhisker, who was super friendly with ThunderClan at the time. For all he knew, they were lying about it. It wasn't even him who had the idea to start a rebellion in the first place, it was Webfoot anyway. And Mudclaw had most of WindClan on his side, so he was not the only one who was thinking this. Despite everything that happened, he was still fighting with StarClan against the Dark Forest. Someone who deputizes a Riverclan cat and swears to devote his clan to Riverclan politics puts his clan above everything else? The only thing Mudclaw puts over everything else is himself. Not to mention almost getting Windclan killed on the journey because he was reckless. No, Mudclaw did not have most of Windclan on his side, otherwise he wouldn't have needed Hawkfrost and his connections to help back him up. He was leading an unpopular revolt with help from Riverclan and Shadowclan, not a good look. Fighting against the Dark Forest doesn't give him a pass for what he did in life. Blackstar fought them as well and he was a spiritually weak leader who almost ruined his clan, not even considering his various crimes prior. Did that come from anyone other than Hawkfrost? He could have been lying, he was really good at that. In the rebellion, Onewhisker had 1. Tallstar (if he counts) 2. Barkface 3. Crowfeather 4. Whitetail 5. Ashfoot Mudclaw had 1. Tornear 2. Webfoot 3. Weaselfur 4. Owlwhisker 5. Nightcloud So, they're pretty much equal when it comes to the cats of WindClan. The cats who sided with Onewhisker, other than Barkface, are super close to him. His mate, his sister, and the son of his sister.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 10:16:54 GMT -5
Someone who deputizes a Riverclan cat and swears to devote his clan to Riverclan politics puts his clan above everything else? The only thing Mudclaw puts over everything else is himself. Not to mention almost getting Windclan killed on the journey because he was reckless. No, Mudclaw did not have most of Windclan on his side, otherwise he wouldn't have needed Hawkfrost and his connections to help back him up. He was leading an unpopular revolt with help from Riverclan and Shadowclan, not a good look. Fighting against the Dark Forest doesn't give him a pass for what he did in life. Blackstar fought them as well and he was a spiritually weak leader who almost ruined his clan, not even considering his various crimes prior. Did that come from anyone other than Hawkfrost? He could have been lying, he was really good at that. In the rebellion, Onewhisker had 1. Tallstar (if he counts) 2. Barkface 3. Crowfeather 4. Whitetail 5. Ashfoot Mudclaw had 1. Tornear 2. Webfoot 3. Weaselfur 4. Owlwhisker 5. Nightcloud So, they're pretty much equal when it comes to the cats of WindClan. The cats who sided with Onewhisker, other than Barkface, are super close to him. His mate, his sister, and the son of his sister. Mudclaw confessed that he was going to make Hawkfrost his deputy and then help him conquer Riverclan for his own later. No lies from Hawkfrost, that was all Mudclaw. You're listing only named characters who supported Onestar. If Mudclaw really had popular support, he would not have needed help from two other clans. That just makes no sense. Unnamed Windclan cats almost certainly supported Onestar for him to do something like that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 10:22:24 GMT -5
Did that come from anyone other than Hawkfrost? He could have been lying, he was really good at that. In the rebellion, Onewhisker had 1. Tallstar (if he counts) 2. Barkface 3. Crowfeather 4. Whitetail 5. Ashfoot Mudclaw had 1. Tornear 2. Webfoot 3. Weaselfur 4. Owlwhisker 5. Nightcloud So, they're pretty much equal when it comes to the cats of WindClan. The cats who sided with Onewhisker, other than Barkface, are super close to him. His mate, his sister, and the son of his sister. Mudclaw confessed that he was going to make Hawkfrost his deputy and then help him conquer Riverclan for his own later. No lies from Hawkfrost, that was all Mudclaw. You're listing only named characters who supported Onestar. If Mudclaw really had popular support, he would not have needed help from two other clans. That just makes no sense. Unnamed Windclan cats almost certainly supported Onestar for him to do something like that. Onestar had help from the other clans as well, they both did.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 10:27:07 GMT -5
Mudclaw confessed that he was going to make Hawkfrost his deputy and then help him conquer Riverclan for his own later. No lies from Hawkfrost, that was all Mudclaw. You're listing only named characters who supported Onestar. If Mudclaw really had popular support, he would not have needed help from two other clans. That just makes no sense. Unnamed Windclan cats almost certainly supported Onestar for him to do something like that. Onestar had help from the other clans as well, they both did. Onestar had no help before the rebellion. If Mudclaw had had the numbers in Windclan to take him down, he could have just done so with just his own supporters. But he didn't really have that many. Also, Onestar only had support from Thunderclan in terms of outside helpers. Mudclaw got Riverclan cats with Hawkfrost AND Shadowclan cats. So really, he needed even more help. And he still failed, mind you. None of this rings like a popular leader, this rings like a rabble rouser.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 10:35:36 GMT -5
Onestar had help from the other clans as well, they both did. Onestar had no help before the rebellion. If Mudclaw had had the numbers in Windclan to take him down, he could have just done so with just his own supporters. But he didn't really have that many. Also, Onestar only had support from Thunderclan in terms of outside helpers. Mudclaw got Riverclan cats with Hawkfrost AND Shadowclan cats. So really, he needed even more help. And he still failed, mind you. None of this rings like a popular leader, this rings like a rabble rouser. Actually, Onestar had help from some RiverClan and ShadowClan cats too Either way, Mudclaw still would have been leagues better than Onestar, who was willing to let a whole clan DIE.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 11:30:48 GMT -5
Onestar had no help before the rebellion. If Mudclaw had had the numbers in Windclan to take him down, he could have just done so with just his own supporters. But he didn't really have that many. Also, Onestar only had support from Thunderclan in terms of outside helpers. Mudclaw got Riverclan cats with Hawkfrost AND Shadowclan cats. So really, he needed even more help. And he still failed, mind you. None of this rings like a popular leader, this rings like a rabble rouser. Actually, Onestar had help from some RiverClan and ShadowClan cats too Either way, Mudclaw still would have been leagues better than Onestar, who was willing to let a whole clan DIE. You should read where the wiki gets that information from. The wiki counts cats who didn't fight on Onestar's side as being on his side purely because they spoke in favor of him. That is not remotely the same thing as Mudclaw who got actual physical support. Not to mention some of the citations being straight-up wrong. There are never any unnamed Shadowclan cats mentioned on Onestar's side. No, Mudclaw would have just made Hawkfrost his deputy and then conquered Riverclan, driving out Mistyfoot and Leopardstar in order to install Hawkfrost as ruler of Riverclan. There's no moral high ground there when he becomes nothing more than Hawkfrost's dog on a leash.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 11:46:02 GMT -5
Actually, Onestar had help from some RiverClan and ShadowClan cats too Either way, Mudclaw still would have been leagues better than Onestar, who was willing to let a whole clan DIE. You should read where the wiki gets that information from. The wiki counts cats who didn't fight on Onestar's side as being on his side purely because they spoke in favor of him. That is not remotely the same thing as Mudclaw who got actual physical support. Not to mention some of the citations being straight-up wrong. There are never any unnamed Shadowclan cats mentioned on Onestar's side. No, Mudclaw would have just made Hawkfrost his deputy and then conquered Riverclan, driving out Mistyfoot and Leopardstar in order to install Hawkfrost as ruler of Riverclan. There's no moral high ground there when he becomes nothing more than Hawkfrost's dog on a leash. He's still better than that lying, back stabbing traitor Onestar. Firestar saved Onestar's life like three times! He helped secured his leadership, and this is how Onestar repays him? I think things would have turned out better, is if Tallstar had to make someone else deputy over Mudclaw, it should have been Tornear. He had more experience, he wasn't as much of a push over as Onewhisker, but he also wasn't as aggressive as Mudclaw. Plus, Mudclaw probably would have been more accepting of Tornear over Onewhisker.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 13:34:58 GMT -5
You should read where the wiki gets that information from. The wiki counts cats who didn't fight on Onestar's side as being on his side purely because they spoke in favor of him. That is not remotely the same thing as Mudclaw who got actual physical support. Not to mention some of the citations being straight-up wrong. There are never any unnamed Shadowclan cats mentioned on Onestar's side. No, Mudclaw would have just made Hawkfrost his deputy and then conquered Riverclan, driving out Mistyfoot and Leopardstar in order to install Hawkfrost as ruler of Riverclan. There's no moral high ground there when he becomes nothing more than Hawkfrost's dog on a leash. He's still better than that lying, back stabbing traitor Onestar. Firestar saved Onestar's life like three times! He helped secured his leadership, and this is how Onestar repays him? I think things would have turned out better, is if Tallstar had to make someone else deputy over Mudclaw, it should have been Tornear. He had more experience, he wasn't as much of a push over as Onewhisker, but he also wasn't as aggressive as Mudclaw. Plus, Mudclaw probably would have been more accepting of Tornear over Onewhisker. Is Mudclaw better? Is Riverclan an acceptable sacrifice in your eyes? It's not fair to act as though Mudclaw was a fine person just because he got killed before he did his worst schemes. That's why he comes off better though he's not. Who knows what kind of leader Tornear would be? Onestar looked perfectly reasonable before coming into power and he turned out awful. Maybe Tornstar would be great, but there's no evidence really going either way.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 13:46:44 GMT -5
He's still better than that lying, back stabbing traitor Onestar. Firestar saved Onestar's life like three times! He helped secured his leadership, and this is how Onestar repays him? I think things would have turned out better, is if Tallstar had to make someone else deputy over Mudclaw, it should have been Tornear. He had more experience, he wasn't as much of a push over as Onewhisker, but he also wasn't as aggressive as Mudclaw. Plus, Mudclaw probably would have been more accepting of Tornear over Onewhisker. Is Mudclaw better? Is Riverclan an acceptable sacrifice in your eyes? It's not fair to act as though Mudclaw was a fine person just because he got killed before he did his worst schemes. That's why he comes off better though he's not. Who knows what kind of leader Tornear would be? Onestar looked perfectly reasonable before coming into power and he turned out awful. Maybe Tornstar would be great, but there's no evidence really going either way. I know Mudclaw wasn't the greatest guy, but when it comes down to Onestar and Mudclaw, I'm going to take Mudclaw's side. There is no one I despise more in this series than Onestar. I even like those brats Sandgorse and Shrewclaw better than him.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 13:49:56 GMT -5
Is Mudclaw better? Is Riverclan an acceptable sacrifice in your eyes? It's not fair to act as though Mudclaw was a fine person just because he got killed before he did his worst schemes. That's why he comes off better though he's not. Who knows what kind of leader Tornear would be? Onestar looked perfectly reasonable before coming into power and he turned out awful. Maybe Tornstar would be great, but there's no evidence really going either way. I know Mudclaw wasn't the greatest guy, but when it comes down to Onestar and Mudclaw, I'm going to take Mudclaw's side. There is no one I despise more in this series than Onestar. I even like those brats Sandgorse and Shrewclaw better than him. What is there to Mudclaw's side beyond bruised pride and ego? Sure, he had been deputy for a while, but he'd also showed horrid judgement on the journey to the point of almost getting his clan killed. That'd be justifiable reason for a demotion in and of itself, to be frank. Onestar's pretty bad, but none of it justifies or excuses Mudclaw.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 13:58:03 GMT -5
I know Mudclaw wasn't the greatest guy, but when it comes down to Onestar and Mudclaw, I'm going to take Mudclaw's side. There is no one I despise more in this series than Onestar. I even like those brats Sandgorse and Shrewclaw better than him. What is there to Mudclaw's side beyond bruised pride and ego? Sure, he had been deputy for a while, but he'd also showed horrid judgement on the journey to the point of almost getting his clan killed. That'd be justifiable reason for a demotion in and of itself, to be frank. Onestar's pretty bad, but none of it justifies or excuses Mudclaw. Mudclaw's probably one of the best fighters that WindClan has had. How did he almost get everyone killed?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 14:13:38 GMT -5
vectoring34Also, back to RiverClan getting destroyed if Mudclaw was leader, how can you be sure if that's what would have happened? If Mudclaw hadn't had his position taken away from him, he would have NEVER hooked up with Hawkfrost, RiverClan wouldn't have even been involved. But Onestar actually did withhold herbs from ShadowClan, the deaths of Crowfrost, Kinkfur, and Wasptail are on him. and even if Mudclaw by some strange turn of events did destroy RiverClan, is RiverClan worth more than ShadowClan?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 21, 2019 14:33:39 GMT -5
I think it's funny that people think Mud and One would have ended up the same. One was supposed to be a good leader but turned into the biggest hypocrite of them all. While Mudclaw was actually not even that bad of a person and still defended his clan even in death, imo that says more to me about his character. Even if he actually did go through with Hawkfrost's manipulation and plans it wouldn't even have come to fruition because Brambleclaw kills his own brother anyways. If Hawkfrost doesn't off him between the time of the rebellion and the final battle then Mudclaw would have simply continued to be leader and choose another deputy. And there was never a guarantee he would have kept his end of the deal anyways. Some of WindClan were willing to side and support him with the help of other clan cats, so I don't see how he wouldn't have helped on of his biggest supporters. Hawkfrost was in it just to use Mudclaw anyways so it really doesn't matter. Tallstar's dream was just a dream and could have very well have been about Onestar instead. The tree that fell on Mudclaw was just a coincidence. And Onestar was never suitable to be leader from the start. While Hawkfrost would have met his end to his own brother as it was prohesied, Hawkfrost wasn't destined to rule any of the clans, he was going to die regardless.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 14:38:03 GMT -5
What is there to Mudclaw's side beyond bruised pride and ego? Sure, he had been deputy for a while, but he'd also showed horrid judgement on the journey to the point of almost getting his clan killed. That'd be justifiable reason for a demotion in and of itself, to be frank. Onestar's pretty bad, but none of it justifies or excuses Mudclaw. Mudclaw's probably one of the best fighters that WindClan has had. How did he almost get everyone killed? Being a good fighter by doing what? Knocking over a pre-Dark Forest training Brambleclaw once? That's not special in the least. Brambleclaw was a loser until he got training from Tigerstar. Besides, how is punching things being good at leading? As to the latter question, it was on the Thunderpath where we saw Mudclaw's colossal ineptitude on display. First he wants to just rush on ahead and refuse help from the other clans despite Windclan being super weakened. Bear in mind too that this is a Thunderpath he has never crossed before and has zero experience with. When the journeying cats take their places to guide their clans across the Thunderpath, Mudclaw just ignores Crowpaw's experience and charges on ahead. Because of that, he goes across too soon and has a monster heading straight for them that almost runs them over. It was blind luck that cats weren't killed when the truck swerved instead of just plowing on ahead and swerved such that it didn't hit them. These are not the actions of a leader, but an impetuous fool. If he wanted to be leader, then he should have cared more about his clan than showing off his pride. If you're going to go by a scenario where Mudclaw became leader to begin with, why aren't you giving Onestar the same benefit of the doubt? A lot of his later evil acts are driven by a need to look strong and independent, a need whose direct origins lie in Mudclaw leading a rebellion against him. We must judge them both at their worst, not a hypothetical situation to try to make Mudclaw look better.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 14:40:25 GMT -5
Mudclaw's probably one of the best fighters that WindClan has had. How did he almost get everyone killed? Being a good fighter by doing what? Knocking over a pre-Dark Forest training Brambleclaw once? That's not special in the least. Brambleclaw was a loser until he got training from Tigerstar. Besides, how is punching things being good at leading? As to the latter question, it was on the Thunderpath where we saw Mudclaw's colossal ineptitude on display. First he wants to just rush on ahead and refuse help from the other clans despite Windclan being super weakened. Bear in mind too that this is a Thunderpath he has never crossed before and has zero experience with. When the journeying cats take their places to guide their clans across the Thunderpath, Mudclaw just ignores Crowpaw's experience and charges on ahead. Because of that, he goes across too soon and has a monster heading straight for them that almost runs them over. It was blind luck that cats weren't killed when the truck swerved instead of just plowing on ahead and swerved such that it didn't hit them. These are not the actions of a leader, but an impetuous fool. If he wanted to be leader, then he should have cared more about his clan than showing off his pride. If you're going to go by a scenario where Mudclaw became leader to begin with, why aren't you giving Onestar the same benefit of the doubt? A lot of his later evil acts are driven by a need to look strong and independent, a need whose direct origins lie in Mudclaw leading a rebellion against him. We must judge them both at their worst, not a hypothetical situation to try to make Mudclaw look better. There's no hypothetical when it comes to Onestar, that rat did almost destroy ShadowClan. But I'm done arguing about this. I respect your opinion, and I'm sorry, but mine isn't going to change.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 21, 2019 14:47:08 GMT -5
I think it's funny that people think Mud and One would have ended up the same. One was supposed to be a good leader but turned into the biggest hypocrite of them all. While Mudclaw was actually not even that bad of a person and still defended his clan even in death, imo that says more to me about his character. Even if he actually did go through with Hawkfrost's manipulation and plans it wouldn't even have come to fruition because Brambleclaw kills his own brother anyways. If Hawkfrost doesn't off him between the time of the rebellion and the final battle then Mudclaw would have simply continued to be leader and choose another deputy. And there was never a guarantee he would have kept his end of the deal anyways. Some of WindClan were willing to side and support him with the help of other clan cats, so I don't see how he wouldn't have helped on of his biggest supporters. Hawkfrost was in it just to use Mudclaw anyways so it really doesn't matter. Tallstar's dream was just a dream and could have very well have been about Onestar instead. The tree that fell on Mudclaw was just a coincidence. And Onestar was never suitable to be leader from the start. While Hawkfrost would have met his end to his own brother as it was prohesied, Hawkfrost wasn't destined to rule any of the clans, he was going to die regardless. Not that bad of a person=Conquering clans because Hawkfrost tells you to? I mean I guess he's not the worst we've ever seen. But no one lets Onestar off the hook for not being the worst either. What does defending his clan in his death matter? Dead cats act way different from their living counterparts. Just look at Ashfur and Hollyleaf for proof of that. They aren't the same person. I'm not sure what your point is with Hawkfrost dying anyway. For one thing, if Hawkfrost had become leader of Riverclan and deputy of Windclan at the same time, then he could have just attacked Thunderclan en-masse to kill Firestar rather than skulk about with his fox trap scheme, so we have no idea if he would have died at all. Plus, he would have become Hawkstar at that point with nine lives and such which would make it even more difficult. Let's assume Hawkfrost does die though. How does that in any way get Mudclaw off the hook for helping him in that situation? Mudclaw has zero way of knowing Hawkfrost is destined to die. You're acting as though Mudclaw has omniscient knowledge and knows that Hawkfrost will die regardless, so there's nothing wrong with helping him, but this is simply not the case. Mudclaw would have been acting under the assumption that Hawkfrost will succeed, and that's not good. Also, the prophecy guarantees nothing. " Before there is peace, blood will spill blood, and the lake will run red." There is a clause to Hawkfrost's death, namely that peace must follow it. In a hypothetical scenario where we have a Hawkstar, this peace clause would not be able to take effect until later.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 21, 2019 19:01:56 GMT -5
I'm not in the mood ya know. We've been over this many times, and my opinions won't change. To me your points are nonsensical, do you really feel the need to debate all the time? Agree to disagree, cause we both know how this will end again.
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