|
Post by wheeledwarrior on Sept 18, 2019 12:46:00 GMT -5
Has anyone ever found it strange that the series hasn’t ever done that? I’m not talking about someone who gets pregnant while they are deputy or finds out after they are chosen. I’m talking about someone who is already pregnant or nursing at the time they’re chosen. There’s no rule stating a queen can’t be chosen as a deputy, yet leaders never seem to do it, and it places females at a distinct disadvantage.
Fan stories sometimes do this, with one particular one having the queen in question just switching off between her deputy duties and her queen duties when needed, and allowing other queens to help her in the worst of situations. She also allowed other members of her Clan to visit her in the nursery for things related to being the deputy as well as conducting some duties from there.
Heck, most of Bluestar’s issues could’ve been avoided if Sunstar had just picked her right away, and from what I recall, she wasn’t the only queen in the nursery at the time. Leafstar’s backstory shows that female leaders kits can have kits, even if she wasn’t pregnant at the time she was chosen. So what’s the deal with deputies?
|
|
|
Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 13:40:23 GMT -5
*whispers into the night* it’s bad writing
|
|
|
Post by quailberry on Sept 18, 2019 17:45:19 GMT -5
Yeah, for all Vicky's very rightful talk of how Bluestar was a depiction of how real life women must choose between home and work, there was never actually any point in series where the rule is improved upon.
I've never thought about a queen as deputy before. There's no reason why she shouldn't.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 18, 2019 18:20:18 GMT -5
i wonder why it hasnt happened. like what if a queen's kits are almost apprentice aged but she still needs to stay with them sometimes? and she's the most qualified and logical choice for next deputy. would the leader to be pick her and make someone else wtach the kits? what if the kits were younger? she'd just not get picked like what happened to bluefur/star
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 18, 2019 19:03:32 GMT -5
I think it's silly to not choose a cat because she's a queen We constantly see queens helping each other in this series, and there's no reason it couldn't be the case Bad writing~
|
|
|
Post by lynxpelt the visionary on Sept 18, 2019 19:05:54 GMT -5
I'm beginning to think that the only reason deputy queens were presented as such a big deal was because the Erins wanted a way to make Bluestar's backstory more tragic.
|
|
|
Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 19:09:27 GMT -5
it kind of depresses me how much casual sexism there is in these books considering they’re written by a bunch of women
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 18, 2019 19:12:38 GMT -5
So...you know there's a thing called medical leave. A queen who is expecting kits shouldn't be stressed with the duties of deputyship.
|
|
|
Post by Pince on Sept 18, 2019 19:12:57 GMT -5
Yeah, probably just for Bluestar's prophecy. If it was addressed in the books a cat would probably say because it's easier to choose a cat without kits. Even though that's dumb.
|
|
|
Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 19:15:48 GMT -5
So...you know there's a thing called medical leave. A queen who is expecting kits shouldn't be stressed with the duties of deputyship. no reason why someone couldn’t fill in for the queen temporarily while she’s pregnant/nursing though? irl women don’t just leave their job when they get pregnant. a leader choosing a deputy should base it on who will be the best in the long term
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 18, 2019 19:33:06 GMT -5
So...you know there's a thing called medical leave. A queen who is expecting kits shouldn't be stressed with the duties of deputyship. no reason why someone couldn’t fill in for the queen temporarily while she’s pregnant/nursing though? irl women don’t just leave their job when they get pregnant. a leader choosing a deputy should base it on who will be the best in the long term I think it's unfair to kits to have a mother's attention pulled away from them just so they can do deputy duties. Their relationship with their mother in the nursery is their early childhood, and a child shouldn't feel neglected because their attention is somewhere else. Having another queen fill in for her isn't the same as her actually being with her child during their early stages of development while they're still kits. IRL women have maternal leave once they're at least 5 to 6 months in, out of 9, and even then most don't return to work until after two months from the birthdate. And you're right, they should choose what's best for the long term, but they also need to consider what's best for the current. If she's deputy she's still a warrior, she'd have to leave on warrior duties, go to important meetings, be at every gathering, and even fight by her leader's side if necessary. Actually the situation with Moonlight is a pretty good example of exactly what stress and bad circumstances can do to a pregnant she-cat. Silverstream was also way too active while she was pregnant and her kits came early, and that situation ended in disaster. When Pebbleshine tried to actively provide for her kits on her own she couldn't even make it back to them and died in the process. Even if it's the case of cats coming to the nursery den for orders, that's no place for a bunch of warriors to show up. The nursery is supposed to be a safe and calming place for kits to grow up, not for warriors to constantly move in and out of about troubles, patrols, and other things. Leafstar isn't the same as the cats by the lakes, she's from SkyClan, modern SkyClan at that, and their situation is already unusual as it is. She also had issues while she was pregnant and after having kits, especially with her own mate, which was honestly ridiculous. So tbh, I wouldn't even count her. A queen leader going to clan meetings imo doesn't seem like the best idea.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 18, 2019 19:39:08 GMT -5
Think of it like this, why would an employer hire someone who is soon to be on maternal leave, when they can just hire someone already fully capable at the time that could also fit the bill just as much. Employers will always give positions to those who are fully capable and already available to start asap. And in the case of a queen, she shouldn't have to have a stand-in if she's literally just been chosen, or hadn't been deputy long. What's the point of choosing her, when a stand-in can do the same, why not have chosen the stand-in from the start who is also fully capable and even more so already available. It really would be redundant and nonsensical. Especially when a Queen should be focusing on making sure her kits are born at the right time, and not from stress, or making sure they're in a safe environment, etc. She shouldn't have her responsibilities as a mother be piled on by responsibilities of a deputy, when her focus should be her kits, especially during early development.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 20:06:48 GMT -5
no reason why someone couldn’t fill in for the queen temporarily while she’s pregnant/nursing though? irl women don’t just leave their job when they get pregnant. a leader choosing a deputy should base it on who will be the best in the long term I think it's unfair to kits to have a mother's attention pulled away from them just so they can do deputy duties. Their relationship with their mother in the nursery is their early childhood, and a child shouldn't feel neglected because their attention is somewhere else. Having another queen fill in for her isn't the same as her actually being with her child during their early stages of development while they're still kits. IRL women have maternal leave once they're at least 5 to 6 months in, out of 9, and even then most don't return to work until after two months from the birthdate. And you're right, they should choose what's best for the long term, but they also need to consider what's best for the current. If she's deputy she's still a warrior, she'd have to leave on warrior duties, go to important meetings, be at every gathering, and even fight by her leader's side if necessary. Actually the situation with Moonlight is a pretty good example of exactly what stress and bad circumstances can do to a pregnant she-cat. Silverstream was also way too active while she was pregnant and her kits came early, and that situation ended in disaster. When Pebbleshine tried to actively provide for her kits on her own she couldn't even make it back to them and died in the process. Even if it's the case of cats coming to the nursery den for orders, that's no place for a bunch of warriors to show up. The nursery is supposed to be a safe and calming place for kits to grow up, not for warriors to constantly move in and out of about troubles, patrols, and other things. Leafstar isn't the same as the cats by the lakes, she's from SkyClan, modern SkyClan at that, and their situation is already unusual as it is. She also had issues while she was pregnant and after having kits, especially with her own mate, which was honestly ridiculous. So tbh, I wouldn't even count her. A queen leader going to clan meetings imo doesn't seem like the best idea. I wish my sister had done that, but she kept working until she got induced, and went back to work less than a month after she gave birth. It does have an affect though, her baby is only not even four months old now, and I've started to notice it. Like, she works at a nursing home, 12 hour shifts, so the baby spends more of his time with me. And well, it takes quite a bit for her to get him to smile at her, but he can just look at me, and smile, and he stops crying as soon as I walk into the room. I'm afraid that he is starting to think I'm his parent. You also make a lot of good points in the rest of your post
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 18, 2019 20:21:51 GMT -5
Think of it like this, why would an employer hire someone who is soon to be on maternal leave, when they can just hire someone already fully capable at the time that could also fit the bill just as much. Employers will always give positions to those who are fully capable and already available to start asap. And in the case of a queen, she shouldn't have to have a stand-in if she's literally just been chosen, or hadn't been deputy long. What's the point of choosing her, when a stand-in can do the same, why not have chosen the stand-in from the start who is also fully capable and even more so already available. It really would be redundant and nonsensical. Especially when a Queen should be focusing on making sure her kits are born at the right time, and not from stress, or making sure they're in a safe environment, etc. She shouldn't have her responsibilities as a mother be piled on by responsibilities of a deputy, when her focus should be her kits, especially during early development. In Bluestar's case, it was different. Apparently only her or Thistleclaw were available, and if he was really as bad as everyone thought, she shouldn't have had to give up her kits. I can see what you're saying in other situations, but with Bluestar, her situation is special too.
|
|
|
Post by wheeledwarrior on Sept 18, 2019 20:38:17 GMT -5
In response to medical leave as well, there’s no reason why someone couldn’t choose a queen as deputy, but delegated duties to someone else until the queen was able to do the duties. Something similar such as the senior warriors taking on the deputy duties until Bramblestar was chosen. Something like that would make sense, because then it doesn’t throw female warriors at a disadvantage, and tragic cases like what happened to Bluestar don’t. I don’t think this is even a case of being sexist, but because there’s no real explanation for it or a way around it, it comes off as being like that.
|
|
#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
|
Post by *Ravenpaw* on Sept 18, 2019 21:15:20 GMT -5
I don't think that's a disadvantage or sexism. Queens don't get chosen to be deputy simply because they're queens. To have the responsibility of raising kits until apprentice age and being the clan's deputy would be too much. However, it wouldn't be a problem if the kits were almost apprentices, but when they need her a lot? No.
As for appointing someone in place of the queen, that's pointless. May as well have chosen them from the start.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 18, 2019 22:11:44 GMT -5
Honestly, to me it seems like Bluestar is the only one who's had to actually deal with this, and it seems dumb. It's been a heckin minute since I read her SE (like 10 years or something), but really, how did she KNOW that the deputyship was 1. Between her and Thistleclaw, and 2. not going to her if she had kits? I remember thinking at the time that Sunstar could have easily picked neither of these cats if he wanted to.
As for a general discussion, I think if there are two or more cats equally qualified to be deputy, then yeah, the one not having to care for kits should be chosen, just like real world employers would do. In cases where the she-cat is the obvious choice for deputy and is far beyond anyone else, then I don't see why a stand-in deputy in the meantime would be a big deal.
|
|
|
Post by morningflower on Sept 19, 2019 2:08:01 GMT -5
Honestly, the situation with Bluefur if Sunstar hadn't been a casual misogynist (and that's what he was, because Vicky was making a comparison to the reality of real women) should have been "You may need to be with your kits now, so I'll appoint a temporary deputy, and then give you the role once they're ready to be on their own for a while." You may need to be with your children during those early days, and that's vital to your kit's development, but having kits shouldn't bar you from future opportunities. And I think that was what was being implied in BP - not only was Bluefur out of action for the months she needed to spend with her kits, cats around her were acting like she could no longer pursue deputyship in the future as well. And this is also the case with RL women, who feel more pressured to give up their non-childrearing aspirations even after their children no longer need them 24/7.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Sept 19, 2019 5:24:31 GMT -5
Sunstar wasn't going to pick Thistleclaw anyway. That's the great irony of Bluestar's Prophecy, that all of what Bluestar did was for nothing. It plays into her character flaws extremely well.
|
|
|
Post by wheeledwarrior on Sept 19, 2019 10:58:40 GMT -5
I think the whole issue is something that could easily be resolved if it was explained better. One fan site ( One of the TV tropes pages for the series to be exact) made an entire plan for what the clans would do if a leader or deputy became a queen, so that she could still do her duties and take care of her kits at the same time with that not being a disadvantage. That plan was extremely sensible, to the point where many people agreed with it, and wished the books could’ve done something like that.
The one time where I saw a queen being deputy, the others did acknowledge that perform her duties from the nursery was at first a little awkward, but they all got used to it and agreed she was the best choice. The awkwardness was mainly because This was the first time that anyone knew a queen had been chosen, but it was a knowledge that maybe you could open doors in the future, and some even side is a good name this was the first time there anyone knew a queen have been chosen, but it it was it acknowledged that maybe you could open doors in the future, and some even saw that a good thing, allowing the opportunity to those that wanted it, but also wanted to become mothers. The closest thing we got in the actual books was Ivypool and Fernsong, and that was considered something that most characters didn’t do. So with doors like that opening, maybe pregnant deputies and leaders will open more too. Heck, I could just imagine a nine lives ceremony from the nursery, with the to be born kits watching as well... that would be very interesting...
If it were me, I would just expand on the code, stating that queens can be chosen as deputies or leaders, but the senior warriors/stand in/deputy ( in a leaders case) must perform their duties for them until they are able to do it themselves. Furthermore, once that happens, those that are acting as a stand-in must step down from that position, but those that do a good job have a higher chance of becoming the actual deputy in the future. The leader also has the right to replace any stand-in that isn’t doing a good job and all stand-ins must be appointed by the leader.
Something like this would make it clear what the rules are, get rid of any issues, and avoid any unfortunate implications that the series has ( like the sexism people pointed out before). It also gives females more freedom by giving them the choice to take those positions regardless of where they are with children, and not make it seem like a disadvantage. But it’s too bad the books probably won’t think that deeply though...
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 19, 2019 14:30:03 GMT -5
Warriors showing up to take orders from a queen in a nursery is the equivalent of soldiers showing up at the hospital or actual nursery/daycare. It's ridiculous sounding on its own.
I don't know why people think that a person wants to be put under the same pressure of raising kits and looking after entire clan issues at the same time. And having a stand-in, as the others said is also pointless because they could have just chosen that person from the start.
Being appointed as deputy is a job offer, and if you don't qualify and aren't readily available, it makes sense to give that offer to someone much more capable at the time and for the long run. It's just the sensible thing to do in a situation like that. However the person being appointed also has a choice as well, it's not "I pick you so now you're deputy", the person chosen has to want the position in the first place and have the right to turn it down as well. It's unnecessary to put queens in a situation where they're under extra stress, and put kits in a situation where they could possibly be neglected or stumped, especially during vital development.
Think of it like this. Queens are settling down, leaving their "careers" to start a family and raise kits, and when they're done with that they can either stay a permaqueen or return back to their career and jobs. It's really not that hard to see the logic behind this. It's just like how Twigbranch wanted to focus on her career atm and not on settling down and having kits with Finleap.
I just don't see the "sexism" being claimed here. It seems unfair for Queens to be put under extra pressure when they already chose to raise kits and start a family. It seems unfair for a stand-in to be in a position of deputy only for them to have the rank ripped from them because they were only just that, a stand-in, despite being fully capable in the first place. And it seems unfair to the kits that are still developing and growing, before and after birth, who rely on their mother most of all from the start only to risk neglect.
|
|
Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
|
Post by Mayflower on Sept 20, 2019 13:52:47 GMT -5
Okay, ramble 'cause y'all already know I don't know when to shut up and this topic has got me thinking.
In the early books (i.e. the first arc), I actually understood why queens couldn't be deputies. Back then, the warrior life was tough as hell. There was death and mayhem all the time, and kits were being stolen and/or were dying for mundane reasons like greencough and just plain weakness. Sometimes they died for seemingly no reason, as we saw with Brindleface's kit, Elderkit...at least, I don't think a reason was given for his death. But having the mother there ensured that as many kits as possible survived, because not only were litters small enough as it is, but there was no guarantee that all of them would make it to apprenticeship. Yes, other queens helped one another, but we didn't see it quite as often then, and the mother was the one who did most of the rearing (which is a subject for another day, since toms weren't involved much then).
That wasn't to mention that having a deputy as a queen was a big risk, because again, back then, deaths -- accidental or otherwise -- happened a lot. The risk of dying in battle was accepted in your warrior vows. It may not happen on purpose, but short of not receiving outright killing blow, if you were dealt a bad enough wound and died of blood loss or infection due to lack of herbs (attacks during bad seasons or after bad luck, like RiverClan attacking after the fire come to mind) or whatever, it was accepted that that's just something that happened. The Clans were constantly fighting over territory and resources, and deaths were expected, but they knew that already. Deputies, from what we could see, were even targeted to some degree. Just look at how Lionheart and Redtail (and Oakheart in RiC) died, and how they were mourned, but life went on. There wasn't even talk of revenge, iirc, beyond the usual "How dare [insert Clan here] attack us, try to take our territory, and scare us into submission?" but I don't think there wasn't much specific mention of avenging the specific cats. They were deputies, and that position seemed to imply a target was placed on your back. Enemy cats might not be able to kill a leader easily due to their nine lives, but you can bet your ass that their deputies only had one life that was way easier to target. Hell, the killings that took place of even regular members like Rosetail were accepted as unfortunate, but expected, casualties to the warrior life. It was only when Tigerstar went nuts killing off ThC members that the Clan got freaked out by how targeted and ruthless he was about it. His murders were not about do territory or any of that; it was straight-up revenge. That was the sort of revenge they were used to coming from enemy warriors they had no connections to in the other Clans, like Brokentail -- not a formerly well-respected, renowned deputy and family member.
Nowadays, though...we see that's relaxed a lot, which is why I think Squirrelflight being deputy and a queen fit into the arc as well. I can't remember the last time a deputy died and if there was a big to-do of it, except for Russetfur's death and that was (imo) blown completely out of proportion by everyone in the series. Like, y'all are warriors, fam. She was old and trying to legit kill Firestar. You get a pass, Lionblaze...chill. Anyway, it's not really such a big deal now, and deaths via battle are...taboo, almost? I'm not sure how to word it, but they aren't really treated as the norm anymore.
TLDR; So all in all, I get the earlier books and their resistance to name queens as deputies. It wouldn't make sense if they continued it after Squirrelflight became deputy, though, since the atmosphere of the series is the opposite of how things were in the old territory, where there was sorta good reason to not have queens as deputies.
|
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 20, 2019 17:52:22 GMT -5
I just wanna add, she was already deputy but Squirrelflight was pregnant with Bramblestar's kits and remained deputy. If they can remain deputy, why couldn't they be chosen? I think at least in the newer times it should be a possibility. Because it would make no sense to demote her while she's already been in the position for moons. And I highly doubt she was doing deputy duties while nursing kits, there was also no stand-in. Meaning Bramblestar probably took it upon himself to do all the work. But the difference here is that he's leader and Squerelflight is his mate and deputy. Which from what I've seen is not a common occurence.
|
|
|
Post by wrenflight on Sept 20, 2019 19:19:36 GMT -5
I still really don’t see why there couldn’t be a temporary replacement a la Mistystar and Hawkfrost?
And I can’t believe a child will be permanently damaged if their mother takes 10 minutes away from them to assign patrols and talk with the senior warriors or leader and then immediately goes back to hanging with them.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 20, 2019 20:30:12 GMT -5
I still really don’t see why there couldn’t be a temporary replacement a la Mistystar and Hawkfrost? And I can’t believe a child will be permanently damaged if their mother takes 10 minutes away from them to assign patrols and talk with the senior warriors or leader and then immediately goes back to hanging with them. 10 minutes if you think it'll be that long but when its reoccurring, that's different. On top of that organizing patrols three times a day at least, solving disputes at boarders, over prey or even among clanmates. Aiding the leader in important meetings and gatherings, even battle, etc. Also Mistystar didn't have kits at the time, nor was she pregnant, when Hawkfrost replaced her. He became deputy under the assumption Misty was dead or abandoned her clan but in reality she was trapped by twolegs.
|
|