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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 20:23:49 GMT -5
I've seen people say that these guys didn't deserve to be leader, who do you think deserved to be leader the least?
I'm a bit on the fence myself, I'll begin with Bramblestar. It was annoying how badly he wanted to be deputy, and how he almost killed Firestar, I know he didn't but he did think about it. Like, after the notion got into his head, that was ALL he thought about mostly. However, he is a pretty good leader.
Tigerstar 2, didn't he ditch ShadowClan for Dovewing? Also, was he even deputy? I don't remember. Even if he was, I don't think a cat who broke the code that severely should be leader, it'd make me wonder where their loyalties truly lie. However, he does now seem loyal to ShadowClan, and he seems to be a great leader so far.
Onestar Ehhhhhhh He became mates with someone outside of WindClan, he wasn't even chosen the proper way. However, he wasn't all power mad like Bramblestar, and he didn't ditch his clan like Tigerstar 2. However, I think WindClan became worse under his leadership, he kept starting countless battles, and weren't they always starving? He also almost destroyed ShadowClan by not sharing his herbs. However, he is last on my list of who didn't deserve to be leader, even if he did turn out to be the worst.
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Post by kinkajou on Jul 17, 2019 21:39:46 GMT -5
Onestar: Didn't deserve it, bad leader Tigerheart: Didn't deserve it, ok leader (cause TRS isn't canon to me) Bramblestar: Deserved it, bad leader
I think the one who deserved it the least was Onestar, at least Tigerheart was deputy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 21:49:40 GMT -5
IMO, Tigerstar 2 deserved it the least. I don't even really mind him that much, but after deserting his clan when it was falling apart he really did not deserve leadership at all. He abandoned them in their time of need to be with his forbidden mate who didn't even need him to be there, was gone for literal months and didn't even get to experience what it was like for the rest of his clan, then he shows up and he's suddenly leader without approval from his own clan... he was forced on them. He had his 9 lives and leader name before the rest of shadowclan even knew he had returned iirc? or at least before anyone had a chance to protest. I would be so damn bitter if I was a shadowclan cat, like who gave you the right??
I've said it before but I still think Dawnpelt should have lived to be leader. She would have been so much better than him.
out of all these cats, I think Onestar deserved it the most. He was a terrible leader, but at least he was loyal and Tallstar had the right to change his mind, even if it wasn't the smartest decision and his mind was probably clouded with old person funk and he couldn't think straight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 22:16:16 GMT -5
IMO, Tigerstar 2 deserved it the least. I don't even really mind him that much, but after deserting his clan when it was falling apart he really did not deserve leadership at all. He abandoned them in their time of need to be with his forbidden mate who didn't even need him to be there, was gone for literal months and didn't even get to experience what it was like for the rest of his clan, then he shows up and he's suddenly leader without approval from his own clan... he was forced on them. He had his 9 lives and leader name before the rest of shadowclan even knew he had returned iirc? or at least before anyone had a chance to protest. I would be so damn bitter if I was a shadowclan cat, like who gave you the right?? I've said it before but I still think Dawnpelt should have lived to be leader. She would have been so much better than him. out of all these cats, I think Onestar deserved it the most. He was a terrible leader, but at least he was loyal and Tallstar had the right to change his mind, even if it wasn't the smartest decision and his mind was probably clouded with old person funk and he couldn't think straight. I think Tallstar was actually thinking straight when he made Onewhisker the new deputy, it was Onestar who fudged all that up. I don't think he was thinking when he made Mudclaw deputy though, the only reason he made Mudclaw deputy, was he needed someone who wasn't soft to counter-act his soft leadership, but he seemed to not think in the long run, like when he died, and Mudclaw became leader. I think that Onewhisker was a bit too soft, and not respected by his clanmates. If there was one cat Tallstar should have made deputy, it's Tornear, he's not too aggressive, and not too soft. I agree with you about Tigerheart
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 17, 2019 22:31:52 GMT -5
Onewhisker broke the code because he is unqualified and was NEVER deputy. Just because Tallstar named him deputy, doesn't mean Onewhisker was therefore supposed to become the next leader. The title of deputy was empty since he never served. It's the same as if some random schmuck on the street skipped being a politician and was immediately sworn in as president with no knowledge of politics whatsoever. That's how disaterous Onestar is and always has been since becoming leader.
Tigerheart at least was chosen in a valid way to be deputy. I may not like him, but he was still okay at it and clearly had ambition to become leader someday, something Onewhisker never ever had to begin with.
But Brambleclaw deserved it the MOST out of the three here. He was a leader on the sun-drown journey and was chosen to be deputy soon after. Yes, he should have had an apprentice BEFORE being chosen, but he still had an apprentice while being deputy at the same time, so it can still work.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 17, 2019 23:14:44 GMT -5
Onestar. No contest. He was chosen very last minute and showed absolutely NO AMBITION nor DRIVE to be leader at all. Him being chosen on the spot was all due to Tallstar's paranoia, which iirc was confirmed to be just that, paranoia.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 17, 2019 23:32:40 GMT -5
I was very torn between Onestar and Tigerstar II, but I voted Onestar because I haven't read Tigerheart's Shadow and I feel like I can't judge him if I don't have the facts.
I think Onewhisker may have been a good cat, didn't have quite enough status within his Clan to be a successful leader, and like others mentioned, he never served as deputy.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 18, 2019 18:42:32 GMT -5
Actually, considering Onestar betrayed his clan even before the deputy change, he really doesn't deserve his position. He's worse than Tigerheart for abandoning his kittypet mate which led to the deaths of the rest of his illegitimate children. He's a coward.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 18, 2019 19:12:35 GMT -5
Onestar didn't deserve to be leader but the circumstances of his ascension understandable considering Mudclaw was an unprincipled fool who had endangered Windclan on the journey to the lake territories with his awful decisions. That Onestar ended up being just as bad isn't good, but the logic to swap out Mudclaw for him has merit.
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Post by Papillon on Jul 18, 2019 19:35:15 GMT -5
Onestar didn't deserve it at all, and he was always a terrible leader. Just awful. I'm reading Crowfeather's trial and it's shocking how bad he is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 19:40:21 GMT -5
Onestar didn't deserve it at all, and he was always a terrible leader. Just awful. I'm reading Crowfeather's trial and it's shocking how bad he is. I haven't read Crowfeather's Trial, but I heard he compared Bramblestar to Tigerstar, and accused him of being happy that Firestar died, and that he also wanted to chase the stoats onto ThunderClan territory. That thing has NO right to say ANYTHING about Firestar. He betrayed his friendship, and took everything he did for him, and threw it in his face. Firestar was only ever nice to him, he saved his life three times, even losing a life for him, he helped secure his WindClan leadership position, and he was ALWAYS willing to help WindClan when they needed it. In return, Onestar starts countless battles with ThunderClan, accuses them at every turn, and is just so infuriating it hurts.
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Post by Willowmoon on Jul 19, 2019 2:55:20 GMT -5
I've seen people say that these guys didn't deserve to be leader, who do you think deserved to be leader the least? I'm a bit on the fence myself, I'll begin with Bramblestar. It was annoying how badly he wanted to be deputy, and how he almost killed Firestar, I know he didn't but he did think about it. Like, after the notion got into his head, that was ALL he thought about mostly. However, he is a pretty good leader. Tigerstar 2, didn't he ditch ShadowClan for Dovewing? Also, was he even deputy? I don't remember. Even if he was, I don't think a cat who broke the code that severely should be leader, it'd make me wonder where their loyalties truly lie. However, he does now seem loyal to ShadowClan, and he seems to be a great leader so far. Onestar Ehhhhhhh He became mates with someone outside of WindClan, he wasn't even chosen the proper way. However, he wasn't all power mad like Bramblestar, and he didn't ditch his clan like Tigerstar 2. However, I think WindClan became worse under his leadership, he kept starting countless battles, and weren't they always starving? He also almost destroyed ShadowClan by not sharing his herbs. However, he is last on my list of who didn't deserve to be leader, even if he did turn out to be the worst. Honestly, I think all of them made good leaders, (not Onestar when he was old, but he started off good). I’d have to say him though. Like chicken said, he did some absolutely idiotic things to everyone, but he just kinda went crazy. I’m glad he was chosen at first, instead of mudclaw, but Onewhisker is a million times better than Onestar.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 19, 2019 12:15:12 GMT -5
If we're being honest here, Mudclaw would have been a better leader, and honestly wouldn't even have been that bad compared to other leaders like Blackstar and Leopardstar. Making idiotic decisions is one thing, you can learn from that. Literally murdering cats is another, and is disgusting. But at least Mudclaw wasn't a coward and actually cared about his clan instead of finding amusement in abusing his power to torture other clans like Onestar. He's utterly gross, and the only reason there was a change in deputy in the first place was because Tallstar already had a soft spot for Firestar and because Onestar just happened to be his best friend. How ironic that a selfish decision he made to bring Thunder and Wind closer only tore them apart further. At least Mudclaw had morals.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 12:18:28 GMT -5
If we're being honest here, Mudclaw would have been a better leader, and honestly wouldn't even have been that bad compared to other leaders like Blackstar and Leopardstar. Making idiotic decisions is one thing, you can learn from that. Literally murdering cats is another, and is disgusting. But at least Mudclaw wasn't a coward and actually cared about his clan instead of finding amusement in abusing his power to torture other clans like Onestar. He's utterly gross, and the only reason there was a change in deputy in the first place was because Tallstar already had a soft spot for Firestar and because Onestar just happened to be his best friend. How ironic that a selfish decision he made to bring Thunder and Wind closer only tore them apart further. At least Mudclaw had morals. I wish I could like this 100 times! Mudclaw didn't even kill anyone either, did he? I know Onestar didn't kill anyone directly, but I think he should get a lot of the blame for Crowfrost and Kinkfur. Mudclaw wasn't even that bad to begin with, all the TWO times he was pissed off, he had every right to be
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 19, 2019 12:41:25 GMT -5
If we're being honest here, Mudclaw would have been a better leader, and honestly wouldn't even have been that bad compared to other leaders like Blackstar and Leopardstar. Making idiotic decisions is one thing, you can learn from that. Literally murdering cats is another, and is disgusting. But at least Mudclaw wasn't a coward and actually cared about his clan instead of finding amusement in abusing his power to torture other clans like Onestar. He's utterly gross, and the only reason there was a change in deputy in the first place was because Tallstar already had a soft spot for Firestar and because Onestar just happened to be his best friend. How ironic that a selfish decision he made to bring Thunder and Wind closer only tore them apart further. At least Mudclaw had morals. I wish I could like this 100 times! Mudclaw didn't even kill anyone either, did he? I know Onestar didn't kill anyone directly, but I think he should get a lot of the blame for Crowfrost and Kinkfur. Mudclaw wasn't even that bad to begin with, all the TWO times he was pissed off, he had every right to be You're right, he never killed anyone in the series period. But a lot of people like to accuse him of trying to kill Onestar or planning to, when there's no evidence to back up that claim. They also ignore the fact that Onestar had several chances to back down and still didn't, and there's no confirmation Mudclaw would have killed him instead of chasing him out had he won. On the other hand Onestar cause so many deaths it's not even funny. -He rejected his kittpet family instead of taking responsibility for his actions, scared of how Tallstar would react, his actions cause the deaths of all but one of his kits. Whom he still rejected when their mother pleaded for his help a second time. -He also denied ShadowClan life saving herbs just to cover up his own mistakes because Darktail was his son. He wanted ShadowClan to take care of Darktail for him and when they didn't he was willing to let Queens, Elders and kits DIE just because of it. His own deputy and medicine cat went against him because of how horribly stupid his actions were. -On top of that there's also the fact he attacked ThunderClan in the middle of the night in their own camp with the intentions of driving them out, ironically behaving like Brokenstar, and later causing an all out war. At the same time he literally threw Firestar's friendship with him in his face, it was utterly infuriating. -And in CT he wanted to intentionally drive the stoats into ThunderClan territory, just to cause them problems and put their cats in danger. Even Crowfeather found his orders to be horrifying, and morally messed up, meanwhile Onestar thought the whole ordeal would be amusing. And yeah you're not wrong. The two times Mudclaw was actually shown to be pissed off was when they found out ThunderClan was literally taking care of a murdering tyrant and then later had to gaul to even protect him during a battle after both Shadow and Wind united to punish him. So in turn they refused to let Bluestar (who wasn't even in the right mind anymore at that point) cross through their territory. And the other time was over the change in deputy, it makes sense for him to be rightfully angry at that. There were no witnesses to the deputy change except for Firestar, a kittypet leader, and his best friend, Onewhisker a cowardly warrior, and Brambleclaw, son of Tigerstar and utter tyrant that cause all four clans problems. This is all still fresh too, because it's only the second series, and it was obviously not just him who didn't like the change, especially when it was his clanmates that encouraged him to rebel. Meanwhile Firestar had no business interfering with WindClan politics, and Brambleclaw felt guilty for with holding information like how Tallstar didn't even use the proper ceremonial words. The whole thing was disastrous. And at most, as a leader, Mudclaw would have just been a more likable Blackstar.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 19, 2019 12:56:22 GMT -5
Mudclaw was going to lead a coup in Riverclan for his buddy Hawkfrost, how does that figure into the "Mudclaw was totally a nice guy" narrative? He has to kill Leopardstar for Hawkfrost to get his nine lives and then also get Mistyfoot out of the way. Onestar turned out to be bad, but at the time, Mudclaw had been making bad decision after bad decision like jumping the gun on crossing the Thunderpath and generally chafing at the prophecy group rightly telling him what to do. He looked really bad on the journey and everyone just seems to forget that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 13:29:23 GMT -5
❅Maplefrost❅Yeah, and plus most of WindClan was on Mudclaw's side, they didn't want Onestar to be their leader, but Onewhisker did have the important cats on his side, like Tallstar and Barkface sadly. Mudclaw wasn't the only cat who was pissed off at Bluestar and ThunderClan during the whole Brokenstar thing, I know that Tornear was also part of the patrol who wouldn't let her pass.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 19, 2019 14:10:03 GMT -5
No one is saying he's totally nice, but at the same time, we do acknowledge he made mistakes. Hawkfrost offered him and the rebellion support, but it turns out he was actually manipulating him. At the end of the day accusing Mudclaw of something he's never done is ridiculous, even more, when it didn't even happen while he was still alive. There was no confirmation he would have gone through with any of those plans, just like how Onestar didn't turn out to be the great leader Tallstar believed he would have been. Actually, it wasn't even that, he was more concerned about Thunder and Wind being united over his faith in Onestar's leadership.
In comparison, Mudclaw had more right to be a leader compared to ACTUAL murderers like Blackstar and Leopardstar. And Mudclaw was actually trying to leader the group while they made the journey, on the other hand, Onewhisker was more concerned about Tallstar, and Tallstar himself barely could make the journey himself. Neither of them was leading and Mudclaw was the best they had, and was actually serving as a deputy like he was supposed to.
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Post by Willowmoon on Jul 19, 2019 17:53:35 GMT -5
I wish I could like this 100 times! Mudclaw didn't even kill anyone either, did he? I know Onestar didn't kill anyone directly, but I think he should get a lot of the blame for Crowfrost and Kinkfur. Mudclaw wasn't even that bad to begin with, all the TWO times he was pissed off, he had every right to be You're right, he never killed anyone in the series period. But a lot of people like to accuse him of trying to kill Onestar or planning to, when there's no evidence to back up that claim. They also ignore the fact that Onestar had several chances to back down and still didn't, and there's no confirmation Mudclaw would have killed him instead of chasing him out had he won. On the other hand Onestar cause so many deaths it's not even funny. -He rejected his kittpet family instead of taking responsibility for his actions, scared of how Tallstar would react, his actions cause the deaths of all but one of his kits. Whom he still rejected when their mother pleaded for his help a second time. -He also denied ShadowClan life saving herbs just to cover up his own mistakes because Darktail was his son. He wanted ShadowClan to take care of Darktail for him and when they didn't he was willing to let Queens, Elders and kits DIE just because of it. His own deputy and medicine cat went against him because of how horribly stupid his actions were. -On top of that there's also the fact he attacked ThunderClan in the middle of the night in their own camp with the intentions of driving them out, ironically behaving like Brokenstar, and later causing an all out war. At the same time he literally threw Firestar's friendship with him in his face, it was utterly infuriating. -And in CT he wanted to intentionally drive the stoats into ThunderClan territory, just to cause them problems and put their cats in danger. Even Crowfeather found his orders to be horrifying, and morally messed up, meanwhile Onestar thought the whole ordeal would be amusing. And yeah you're not wrong. The two times Mudclaw was actually shown to be pissed off was when they found out ThunderClan was literally taking care of a murdering tyrant and then later had to gaul to even protect him during a battle after both Shadow and Wind united to punish him. So in turn they refused to let Bluestar (who wasn't even in the right mind anymore at that point) cross through their territory. And the other time was over the change in deputy, it makes sense for him to be rightfully angry at that. There were no witnesses to the deputy change except for Firestar, a kittypet leader, and his best friend, Onewhisker a cowardly warrior, and Brambleclaw, son of Tigerstar and utter tyrant that cause all four clans problems. This is all still fresh too, because it's only the second series, and it was obviously not just him who didn't like the change, especially when it was his clanmates that encouraged him to rebel. Meanwhile Firestar had no business interfering with WindClan politics, and Brambleclaw felt guilty for with holding information like how Tallstar didn't even use the proper ceremonial words. The whole thing was disastrous. And at most, as a leader, Mudclaw would have just been a more likable Blackstar. *ahem* BuT i ThOuGhT hE wAs EvIl! That’s why StarClan squished him with a tree! I thought he went to the DF. He certainly seemed evil to me. Also, I just was always biased for Onestar so.... and Hawkfrost and him WERE plotting evil....stuff?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 18:07:01 GMT -5
WillowmoonMudclaw is in StarClan, he even helps plan with StarClan to fight against the Dark Forest. The only reason Mudclaw hooked up with Hawkfrost, was so he could get the position that he believed was rightfully his, his position that he believed was given to Onestar under suspicious circumstances.
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Post by Willowmoon on Jul 19, 2019 18:08:53 GMT -5
OK? I still think he's evil
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 18:11:27 GMT -5
OK? I still think he's evilAt least he didn't abandon his kits and leave a whole clan to die
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Post by Willowmoon on Jul 19, 2019 18:12:48 GMT -5
OK? I still think he's evilAt least he didn't abandon his kits and leave a whole clan to die I guess. I’m still biased though
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 18:14:26 GMT -5
At least he didn't abandon his kits and leave a whole clan to die I guess. I’m still biased though That makes sense To each their own I guess lol
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 19, 2019 19:15:28 GMT -5
Also, StarClan didn't squish him, the Erins confirmed they didn't do that, and it was just a coincidence. And that so-called dream Tallstar had was just that, a dream. Mudclaw wasn't evil, he was fiercely loyal. Also, people seem to disregard how Hawkfrost manipulated him under the guise of supposedly helping the rebellion. Hawkfrost would have killed him eventually, he tried to when Mudclaw called him out for his actions, and in the end, he got just that, Mudclaw dying, he was conveniently silenced. Because Mudclaw could have ruined his plans, especially the relationship between him and Brambleclaw at the time. If anything his actions made Squirrelflight even more suspicious of Hawkfrost, and rightfully so. His true plan was for him to take over two clans, and Brambleclaw to take over the other two, via their father's wishes. Meaning eventually he would have killed Mudclaw regardless.
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Post by Protractor on Jul 19, 2019 19:21:33 GMT -5
What I'm about to say could've solved Tigerheartstar and Onestar:Mudstar
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 19, 2019 19:30:53 GMT -5
Also, StarClan didn't squish him, the Erins confirmed they didn't do that, and it was just a coincidence. And that so-called dream Tallstar had was just that, a dream. Mudclaw wasn't evil, he was fiercely loyal. Also, people seem to disregard how Hawkfrost manipulated him under the guise of supposedly helping the rebellion. Hawkfrost would have killed him eventually, he tried to when Mudclaw called him out for his actions, and in the end, he got just that, Mudclaw dying, he was conveniently silenced. Because Mudclaw could have ruined his plans, especially the relationship between him and Brambleclaw at the time. If anything his actions made Squirrelflight even more suspicious of Hawkfrost, and rightfully so. His true plan was for him to take over two clans, and Brambleclaw to take over the other two, via their father's wishes. Meaning eventually he would have killed Mudclaw regardless. The fact that Mudclaw wasn't smart enough to recognize that Hawkfrost would have killed him anyway doesn't really absolve him of anything anymore than Tigerstar not realizing Scourge would kill him absolves him of trying to use Bloodclan to strong arm the other clans. If anything, it's an indictment of Mudclaw that he couldn't recognize someone who obviously dripping evil as Hawkfrost as being treacherous. More to the point, if Mudclaw needs Hawkfrost's help for his rebellion to work, then that means that the majority of Windclan does not in fact support him. I also question describing someone ready to rent out their clan as hired thugs for Hawkfrost as fiercely loyal. Mudclaw also planned to make Hawkfrost his deputy, I really struggle to see how making a Riverclan cat his deputy is fiercely loyal. In fact, that sounds like straight up traitor behavior to me and hypocritical to boot. It wasn't like Hawkfrost was planning on converting clans either, it was pretty clear that Mudclaw knew Hawkfrost would only hang around as deputy in order to take over Riverclan later.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 20, 2019 6:37:04 GMT -5
Also, StarClan didn't squish him, the Erins confirmed they didn't do that, and it was just a coincidence. And that so-called dream Tallstar had was just that, a dream. Mudclaw wasn't evil, he was fiercely loyal. Also, people seem to disregard how Hawkfrost manipulated him under the guise of supposedly helping the rebellion. Hawkfrost would have killed him eventually, he tried to when Mudclaw called him out for his actions, and in the end, he got just that, Mudclaw dying, he was conveniently silenced. Because Mudclaw could have ruined his plans, especially the relationship between him and Brambleclaw at the time. If anything his actions made Squirrelflight even more suspicious of Hawkfrost, and rightfully so. His true plan was for him to take over two clans, and Brambleclaw to take over the other two, via their father's wishes. Meaning eventually he would have killed Mudclaw regardless. The fact that Mudclaw wasn't smart enough to recognize that Hawkfrost would have killed him anyway doesn't really absolve him of anything anymore than Tigerstar not realizing Scourge would kill him absolves him of trying to use Bloodclan to strong arm the other clans. If anything, it's an indictment of Mudclaw that he couldn't recognize someone who obviously dripping evil as Hawkfrost as being treacherous. More to the point, if Mudclaw needs Hawkfrost's help for his rebellion to work, then that means that the majority of Windclan does not in fact support him. I also question describing someone ready to rent out their clan as hired thugs for Hawkfrost as fiercely loyal. Mudclaw also planned to make Hawkfrost his deputy, I really struggle to see how making a Riverclan cat his deputy is fiercely loyal. In fact, that sounds like straight up traitor behavior to me and hypocritical to boot. It wasn't like Hawkfrost was planning on converting clans either, it was pretty clear that Mudclaw knew Hawkfrost would only hang around as deputy in order to take over Riverclan later. Why are you comparing Mudclaw to the likes of Tigerstar? A cat that he actively hated next to Brokenstar for what they've done to his clan? It's not even comparable because there's a difference between starting a rebellion your own clanmates encouraged you to do, and having both ShadowClan and RiverClan on your side as support, compared to tyrannically trying to take over all four clans by force and using rouges from outside the clan to get just that. It isn't the same, and rogues don't live by the warrior code, Tigerstar was just a blood-hungry villain. Mudclaw actually had claim to leadership and was doing it not only because of that but because he actually cared about his clan and was loyal. You don't see him trying to assassinate Tallstar to become leader faster like Tigerstar attempted, and in a way succeeded, with Bluestar. Also before you even say it, there literally no proof that Mudclaw would have killed Onewhisker when he could have just as well chased him out or forced him to submit. Also the only cats that even considered Hawkfrost as "evil" were Mistyfoot, a cat he actively beefed with in RiverClan, and Squirrelflight, the mate of his half-brother who was suspicious of him. It literally takes Brambleclaw seeing his leader dying, considering the idea of killing his said leader himself, and ultimately going against it for him to realize Hawkfrost is evil. That's kinda the point of his character, he manipulates other cats. It may be obvious to the readers, but it's not to the said cats in the stories. Hawkfrost not only manipulated Mudclaw, but also his own sister Mothwing, literally every cat in RiverClan because of the fake sign, Stormfur and Brook, his own brother Brambleclaw, and then later you see these qualities pushed to 10 when he's a DF mentor. Literally shown manipulating other cats into joining the Dark Forest, but at least there he didn't have to hide it much. Mudclaw accepting help that is offered to him isn't the same as Tigerstar who literally went out of his way to enlist rogues to help him take over the remaining clans. If his own clanmates were encouraging him to rebel, and both Shadow and River were showing him support, then apparently that can't mean nothing at all. And Hawkfrost isn't just some "hired thug" he's a clan cat, first and foremost, at least to everyone else that didn't know about his DF training, that was the case for them. If you're going to call him a hired thug, then I guess that makes Firestar one too? Also Firestar was literally shoving his business into WindClan territory from the start, Onewhisker involved outside clans before Mudclaw even accepted help from them. Firestar is literally the only reason Onewhisker even made it to leadership, if not for him he wouldn't even have gotten that far hierarchy wise. And if Mudclaw had become leader, there's literally no guarantee he would have made Hawkfrost his deputy, and even then, so what? He'd be leader at that point, and he obviously put a lot of faith in Hawkfrost especially because he was one of his strongest supporters. To the readers it's foolish, but to Mudclaw and the rest of the rebellion it makes sense. So yeah, again, you're literally trying to push crimes on Mudclaw he didn't even commit, and you have no concrete proof that he would have done it in the end anyways, cause he's dead. And even in death he's literally shown HELPING the living clans by being one of the cats to prepare StarClan for battle. He's still loyal to WindClan even in death. By comparison, even if we're not talking about Onestar, and just Onewhisker, he already betrayed his clan. He betrayed his clan by spending his time with kittypets instead of hunting and defending borders. He betrayed his clan by having a relationship with a kittypet in secret and producing kits. And he betrayed his clan by hiding that very fact from the rest of them, and is morally disgusting for abandoning them in the end like a coward. Not only did his dumb actions literally come back to bite him in the behind, but it almost caused the collapse of two clans. One of which he was willing to let die out just to cover up his mistakes. Mudclaw may be an idiot by your standards but at least he's not a monster like Onestar who was willing to let queens, kits and elders die to hide the fact his illegitimate child was running around murdering other cats and causing havoc. In fact if not for Onestar, Rowanstar would have had a better chance of staying leader, but instead now we have Tigerheartstar, and ironically even he is a better leader than trash like Onestar. And even more ironic is that Onestar ended up being much more like Brokenstar anyways, when he's literally shown attacking ThunderClan's camp, unprovoked, in the middle of the night, with the intent of driving them off of their own territory and even got help from RiverClan to boot. Onestar is both morally and politically a fool, and didn't deserve his position from the start.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 20, 2019 9:42:16 GMT -5
The fact that Mudclaw wasn't smart enough to recognize that Hawkfrost would have killed him anyway doesn't really absolve him of anything anymore than Tigerstar not realizing Scourge would kill him absolves him of trying to use Bloodclan to strong arm the other clans. If anything, it's an indictment of Mudclaw that he couldn't recognize someone who obviously dripping evil as Hawkfrost as being treacherous. More to the point, if Mudclaw needs Hawkfrost's help for his rebellion to work, then that means that the majority of Windclan does not in fact support him. I also question describing someone ready to rent out their clan as hired thugs for Hawkfrost as fiercely loyal. Mudclaw also planned to make Hawkfrost his deputy, I really struggle to see how making a Riverclan cat his deputy is fiercely loyal. In fact, that sounds like straight up traitor behavior to me and hypocritical to boot. It wasn't like Hawkfrost was planning on converting clans either, it was pretty clear that Mudclaw knew Hawkfrost would only hang around as deputy in order to take over Riverclan later. Why are you comparing Mudclaw to the likes of Tigerstar? A cat that he actively hated next to Brokenstar for what they've done to his clan? It's not even comparable because there's a difference between starting a rebellion your own clanmates encouraged you to do, and having both ShadowClan and RiverClan on your side as support, compared to tyrannically trying to take over all four clans by force and using rouges from outside the clan to get just that. It isn't the same, and rogues don't live by the warrior code, Tigerstar was just a blood-hungry villain. Mudclaw actually had claim to leadership and was doing it not only because of that but because he actually cared about his clan and was loyal. You don't see him trying to assassinate Tallstar to become leader faster like Tigerstar attempted, and in a way succeeded, with Bluestar. Also before you even say it, there literally no proof that Mudclaw would have killed Onewhisker when he could have just as well chased him out or forced him to submit. Also the only cats that even considered Hawkfrost as "evil" were Mistyfoot, a cat he actively beefed with in RiverClan, and Squirrelflight, the mate of his half-brother who was suspicious of him. It literally takes Brambleclaw seeing his leader dying, considering the idea of killing his said leader himself, and ultimately going against it for him to realize Hawkfrost is evil. That's kinda the point of his character, he manipulates other cats. It may be obvious to the readers, but it's not to the said cats in the stories. Hawkfrost not only manipulated Mudclaw, but also his own sister Mothwing, literally every cat in RiverClan because of the fake sign, Stormfur and Brook, his own brother Brambleclaw, and then later you see these qualities pushed to 10 when he's a DF mentor. Literally shown manipulating other cats into joining the Dark Forest, but at least there he didn't have to hide it much. Mudclaw accepting help that is offered to him isn't the same as Tigerstar who literally went out of his way to enlist rogues to help him take over the remaining clans. If his own clanmates were encouraging him to rebel, and both Shadow and River were showing him support, then apparently that can't mean nothing at all. And Hawkfrost isn't just some "hired thug" he's a clan cat, first and foremost, at least to everyone else that didn't know about his DF training, that was the case for them. If you're going to call him a hired thug, then I guess that makes Firestar one too? Also Firestar was literally shoving his business into WindClan territory from the start, Onewhisker involved outside clans before Mudclaw even accepted help from them. Firestar is literally the only reason Onewhisker even made it to leadership, if not for him he wouldn't even have gotten that far hierarchy wise. And if Mudclaw had become leader, there's literally no guarantee he would have made Hawkfrost his deputy, and even then, so what? He'd be leader at that point, and he obviously put a lot of faith in Hawkfrost especially because he was one of his strongest supporters. To the readers it's foolish, but to Mudclaw and the rest of the rebellion it makes sense. So yeah, again, you're literally trying to push crimes on Mudclaw he didn't even commit, and you have no concrete proof that he would have done it in the end anyways, cause he's dead. And even in death he's literally shown HELPING the living clans by being one of the cats to prepare StarClan for battle. He's still loyal to WindClan even in death. By comparison, even if we're not talking about Onestar, and just Onewhisker, he already betrayed his clan. He betrayed his clan by spending his time with kittypets instead of hunting and defending borders. He betrayed his clan by having a relationship with a kittypet in secret and producing kits. And he betrayed his clan by hiding that very fact from the rest of them, and is morally disgusting for abandoning them in the end like a coward. Not only did his dumb actions literally come back to bite him in the behind, but it almost caused the collapse of two clans. One of which he was willing to let die out just to cover up his mistakes. Mudclaw may be an idiot by your standards but at least he's not a monster like Onestar who was willing to let queens, kits and elders die to hide the fact his illegitimate child was running around murdering other cats and causing havoc. In fact if not for Onestar, Rowanstar would have had a better chance of staying leader, but instead now we have Tigerheartstar, and ironically even he is a better leader than trash like Onestar. And even more ironic is that Onestar ended up being much more like Brokenstar anyways, when he's literally shown attacking ThunderClan's camp, unprovoked, in the middle of the night, with the intent of driving them off of their own territory and even got help from RiverClan to boot. Onestar is both morally and politically a fool, and didn't deserve his position from the start. You're missing the point of the Tigerstar comparison. The Tigerstar comparison is purely to say that just because someone failed in their evil schemes due to poor choice in allies doesn't exactly absolve them. Mudclaw isn't as morally bad as Tigerstar, don't argue with a strawman. The idea here is that you're defending Mudclaw purely because he failed in his evil goals while ignoring the fact that his failing them was the only reason he didn't perform them. Trying to say that there's no proof of it requires you to believe that Mudclaw when he has nothing else to lose is lying for some reason. Hawkfrost manipulated other cats because they didn't have his exact plans slapped into their face. On the other hand, Mudclaw knew perfectly well that Hawkfrost was going to take over Riverclan. This is a rather problematic hurdle to vault over since taking over Riverclan requires killing one cat at minimum(Leopardstar) and deposing Mistyfoot at best if not also killing her. What part of that doesn't sound evil to you? Even Mudclaw himself recognizes it as evil, given he tries blurting it out to insult Hawkfrost's character and try to damage his credibility in front of Brambleclaw. I have Mudclaw's intent. Trying to minimize it by saying he didn't do it ignores why he didn't do it; because he got killed and was running for the hills prior to that. It wasn't any sense of moral pangs, he never says that he regrets anything, he just failed his plans to conquer Riverclan with Hawkfrost. Helping Starclan in death means absolutely nothing, Bluestar herself points out that cats in death are different from in life. "Things are different here. Some cats even forget parts of their life they don't want to remember." Onestar was bad, but do you know what that doesn't do? Excuse Mudclaw. Mudclaw wasn't taking over because of any legitimate reason, he never says "Oh, Onestar will be a tyrant", he was taking over purely for him self. Onestar's crimes don't minimize Mudclaw's. Having a kittypet mate beforehand is unfortunate, but I'll give him a pass on that compared to making a Riverclanner his deputy and becoming subservient to his whims. One is vastly more poisonous to his clan than the other. That is to say, Onewhisker's mistake being so bad was sheer luck(how Darktail turned out could have been so different). On the face of it, Mudclaw's are much worse, since they don't require any hindsight to see how bad they were like. Onestar's mistakes were many, but even at his worst, attacking Thunderclan to drive them out for an imagined slight...he's only slightly beind Mudclaw's plans to help Hawkfrost kill Leopardstar and depose/kill Mistyfoot. What moral superiority Mudclaw must have, that his first planned act as leader is to go and help Hawkfrost conquer Riverclan. You can't seriously believe that would just be the end of it, no more than Onestar's stunts didn't end at just one.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 20, 2019 14:40:44 GMT -5
Why are you comparing Mudclaw to the likes of Tigerstar? A cat that he actively hated next to Brokenstar for what they've done to his clan? It's not even comparable because there's a difference between starting a rebellion your own clanmates encouraged you to do, and having both ShadowClan and RiverClan on your side as support, compared to tyrannically trying to take over all four clans by force and using rouges from outside the clan to get just that. It isn't the same, and rogues don't live by the warrior code, Tigerstar was just a blood-hungry villain. Mudclaw actually had claim to leadership and was doing it not only because of that but because he actually cared about his clan and was loyal. You don't see him trying to assassinate Tallstar to become leader faster like Tigerstar attempted, and in a way succeeded, with Bluestar. Also before you even say it, there literally no proof that Mudclaw would have killed Onewhisker when he could have just as well chased him out or forced him to submit. Also the only cats that even considered Hawkfrost as "evil" were Mistyfoot, a cat he actively beefed with in RiverClan, and Squirrelflight, the mate of his half-brother who was suspicious of him. It literally takes Brambleclaw seeing his leader dying, considering the idea of killing his said leader himself, and ultimately going against it for him to realize Hawkfrost is evil. That's kinda the point of his character, he manipulates other cats. It may be obvious to the readers, but it's not to the said cats in the stories. Hawkfrost not only manipulated Mudclaw, but also his own sister Mothwing, literally every cat in RiverClan because of the fake sign, Stormfur and Brook, his own brother Brambleclaw, and then later you see these qualities pushed to 10 when he's a DF mentor. Literally shown manipulating other cats into joining the Dark Forest, but at least there he didn't have to hide it much. Mudclaw accepting help that is offered to him isn't the same as Tigerstar who literally went out of his way to enlist rogues to help him take over the remaining clans. If his own clanmates were encouraging him to rebel, and both Shadow and River were showing him support, then apparently that can't mean nothing at all. And Hawkfrost isn't just some "hired thug" he's a clan cat, first and foremost, at least to everyone else that didn't know about his DF training, that was the case for them. If you're going to call him a hired thug, then I guess that makes Firestar one too? Also Firestar was literally shoving his business into WindClan territory from the start, Onewhisker involved outside clans before Mudclaw even accepted help from them. Firestar is literally the only reason Onewhisker even made it to leadership, if not for him he wouldn't even have gotten that far hierarchy wise. And if Mudclaw had become leader, there's literally no guarantee he would have made Hawkfrost his deputy, and even then, so what? He'd be leader at that point, and he obviously put a lot of faith in Hawkfrost especially because he was one of his strongest supporters. To the readers it's foolish, but to Mudclaw and the rest of the rebellion it makes sense. So yeah, again, you're literally trying to push crimes on Mudclaw he didn't even commit, and you have no concrete proof that he would have done it in the end anyways, cause he's dead. And even in death he's literally shown HELPING the living clans by being one of the cats to prepare StarClan for battle. He's still loyal to WindClan even in death. By comparison, even if we're not talking about Onestar, and just Onewhisker, he already betrayed his clan. He betrayed his clan by spending his time with kittypets instead of hunting and defending borders. He betrayed his clan by having a relationship with a kittypet in secret and producing kits. And he betrayed his clan by hiding that very fact from the rest of them, and is morally disgusting for abandoning them in the end like a coward. Not only did his dumb actions literally come back to bite him in the behind, but it almost caused the collapse of two clans. One of which he was willing to let die out just to cover up his mistakes. Mudclaw may be an idiot by your standards but at least he's not a monster like Onestar who was willing to let queens, kits and elders die to hide the fact his illegitimate child was running around murdering other cats and causing havoc. In fact if not for Onestar, Rowanstar would have had a better chance of staying leader, but instead now we have Tigerheartstar, and ironically even he is a better leader than trash like Onestar. And even more ironic is that Onestar ended up being much more like Brokenstar anyways, when he's literally shown attacking ThunderClan's camp, unprovoked, in the middle of the night, with the intent of driving them off of their own territory and even got help from RiverClan to boot. Onestar is both morally and politically a fool, and didn't deserve his position from the start. You're missing the point of the Tigerstar comparison. The Tigerstar comparison is purely to say that just because someone failed in their evil schemes due to poor choice in allies doesn't exactly absolve them. Mudclaw isn't as morally bad as Tigerstar, don't argue with a strawman. The idea here is that you're defending Mudclaw purely because he failed in his evil goals while ignoring the fact that his failing them was the only reason he didn't perform them. Trying to say that there's no proof of it requires you to believe that Mudclaw when he has nothing else to lose is lying for some reason. Hawkfrost manipulated other cats because they didn't have his exact plans slapped into their face. On the other hand, Mudclaw knew perfectly well that Hawkfrost was going to take over Riverclan. This is a rather problematic hurdle to vault over since taking over Riverclan requires killing one cat at minimum(Leopardstar) and deposing Mistyfoot at best if not also killing her. What part of that doesn't sound evil to you? Even Mudclaw himself recognizes it as evil, given he tries blurting it out to insult Hawkfrost's character and try to damage his credibility in front of Brambleclaw. I have Mudclaw's intent. Trying to minimize it by saying he didn't do it ignores why he didn't do it; because he got killed and was running for the hills prior to that. It wasn't any sense of moral pangs, he never says that he regrets anything, he just failed his plans to conquer Riverclan with Hawkfrost. Helping Starclan in death means absolutely nothing, Bluestar herself points out that cats in death are different from in life. "Things are different here. Some cats even forget parts of their life they don't want to remember." Onestar was bad, but do you know what that doesn't do? Excuse Mudclaw. Mudclaw wasn't taking over because of any legitimate reason, he never says "Oh, Onestar will be a tyrant", he was taking over purely for him self. Onestar's crimes don't minimize Mudclaw's. Having a kittypet mate beforehand is unfortunate, but I'll give him a pass on that compared to making a Riverclanner his deputy and becoming subservient to his whims. One is vastly more poisonous to his clan than the other. That is to say, Onewhisker's mistake being so bad was sheer luck(how Darktail turned out could have been so different). On the face of it, Mudclaw's are much worse, since they don't require any hindsight to see how bad they were like. Onestar's mistakes were many, but even at his worst, attacking Thunderclan to drive them out for an imagined slight...he's only slightly beind Mudclaw's plans to help Hawkfrost kill Leopardstar and depose/kill Mistyfoot. What moral superiority Mudclaw must have, that his first planned act as leader is to go and help Hawkfrost conquer Riverclan. You can't seriously believe that would just be the end of it, no more than Onestar's stunts didn't end at just one. You point is nonsensical imo, no offense but your comparison still doesn't make sense in the least. Tigerstar planned to take over ThunderClan from the start, he was destined to be evil, there's even a point where his own father internally debates on killing Tigerkit himself because of who he'll be when he grows up. From the beginning of the story Tigerstar's goal was to become leader through any means necessary, his goal was to kill any deputies before him, and then kill the current leader, then later take over all four clans and unite them under him. That was his goal and what HE wanted as a character. However you seem to be mixing up what Mudclaw wanted and what Hawkfrost wanted. Mudclaw wanted to be leader, he had a right to leadership, he actually served as deputy, and there was no proper change in authority through ceremony, along with the fact there were no actual key witnesses to the change in the first place; the current deputy and the medicine cat or even everyone else in WindClan, etc. His own clanmates encouraged him to rebel against Onewhisker and he did, Hawkfrost offered his help and he took it. However what Hawkfrost wanted was to be deputy of a newfound WindClan and take over RiverClan later, that is what HE wanted. What Mudclaw wanted was to be leader, and rightfully so, and he agreed with Hawkfrost's demands in exchange for his help. However just because this happened still doesn't prove that he was evil, Mudclaw, or had evil intentions. Again, there is no concrete proof that he would have even gone through with these plans just as much as Tallstar thinking that Onestar becoming leader would have brought Thunder and Shadow closer as allies. Heck for all you know it could have been River and Wind uniting peacefully, like Tallstar envisioned for Wind and Thunder. You don't know. But what we DO know is that Mudclaw, again, his goal was to rebel and take his rightful place as leader, while Hawkfrost was just greedy and wanted to be deputy then get RiverClan under him as well. Also to note, the deal was that, from Hawk's point of view, was that if he helped then Mudclaw would leave RiverClan alone, however Mudclaw points out Hawk's actual side of the deal, saying that Hawk wanted to be deputy of WindClan and then wanted help to take over RiverClan later. In the end Brambleclaw believed Hawkfrost, however Squirrelflight thought otherwise, and Hawkfrost got what he wanted, silencing Mudclaw. You don't need to kill a cat to take over another clan, there is such a thing as forcing into submission. There is no guarantee they would have killed any cats, just like there is no guarantee that they would have went along with the plan in the first place. Just like there is no guarantee that Onestar would have followed Tallstar's last wishes, which he didn't. And if you're trying to say that Mudclaw was aware of just how evil Hawkfrost was, that's even more of a reason why there would have been no guarantee he would have went along with Hawk's plans. For all we know, Mudclaw could have just been agreeing to be allies until he became leader, and then could have easily just not make Hawk deputy, and even more so, just not help with his plans for RiverClan. Whether Bluestar says that or not, doesn't change anything. Because you can't 100% apply that to every single cat that literally died and went to StarClan. If Mudclaw was truly evil he would have been in the Dark Forest in the first place. You're literally judging him based on things that never even happened in canon, and even more so when he wasn't even alive anymore. Onestar being a horrible leader is important, because it shows just how much he never deserved the position in the first place. And at this point, they would have been better off with Mudclaw as leader. I find it quite strange that you think Onewhisker betraying his clan, abandoning his kittypet mate, leading to the death of all but one of his kits, and that said kit showing up to commit genocide is more excusable than Mudclaw possibly making a RiverClan cat his deputy. Even if you exclude the Darktail incident it STILL doesn't excuse Onestar's behavior concerning how he treated ThunderClan and Firestar for years; invading their camp at night, attempting to drive them off their own territory, involving even RiverClan, not mention trying to drive stoats into ThunderClan territory thinking it's amusing. And before that, not even that long into his flipping leadership he was already trespassing into TC territory and stealing prey blatantly then refusing to face the music. What was the point of him starting that battle with ThunderClan anyways??? There was no real reason except because his ego was threatened and he wanted to just pick fights with Firestar. Imo, Mudclaw leading a rebellion to take his rightful spot as leader because he served as deputy for moons and didn't believe outsiders makes more sense than Onestar's reasoning. The same cat that didn't even want to be leader in the first place. You have no proof that Mudclaw would have went through with any of those plans, no real guarantee. And you thinking that he would have killed Leopard and Misty are just baseless assumptions. Mudclaw's goals is not the same as Hawkfrost's, in fact Mudclaw could care less about other clans. He's literally shown zero interest in any clan but WindClan, and is always known as a fiercely loyal cat, it's why Tallstar changed his mind at the last minute in the first place. Because he knew that Mudclaw wouldn't have gotten all rainbow and sunshine with ThunderClan like he wanted. Ironically enough, that STILL didn't happen and then some. And compared to the other leaders at the time, Mudclaw literally would not even be that bad. Leopardstar literally did nothing when her Half-clan mates were imprisoned and starved, then one of them was mauled to death and the other three would have met the same fate eventually. While Blackstar quite literally followed in the footsteps of two genocidal maniacs, and people still defend him just because he turned out to be the "best" leader ShadowClan had at that point. I find it hard to believe that Mudclaw is now where near as forgivable apparently, especially when he wasn't even alive as long as the other cats. Mudclaw could have easily been redeemed as a character and developed more. On the other hand it's far to late for cats like Onestar.
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