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Post by Sand on Aug 25, 2018 19:40:44 GMT -5
This is a follow-up on a previous announcement about Warriors General which is still up. If you can't find it, click here. Since it has been three (3) weeks since I made the original announcement and I want to see what members of WCRP think. Feel free to post if you have a comment to add or believe otherwise than the options I've given you. If you're not comfortable with posting it, you may PM me. Any questions or concerns can be posted here as well, although PM is ideal. Thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2018 19:48:30 GMT -5
I would honestly keep these warnings up for a little while longer, though I do appreciate you trying to keep things sorted.
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Post by Sand on Aug 25, 2018 19:50:35 GMT -5
I'm going to leave them up as long as I can because I've noticed that many people are not paying attention to the original announcement. To be frank, it is NOT hard to read a short post and a poll. If members are unwilling to follow something so simple, then I have my resources.
I will also be doing PM warnings soon, depending on the member's actions.
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Post by Katanaheart on Aug 25, 2018 19:56:16 GMT -5
The action has been relatively swift on the mod’s side, you guys are doing amazing after all. But as for the members, it’s gotten somewhat better, but nowhere near to what I’d call improving... Vague attempts to quiet temper but then it just lashes out somewhat later in the thread.
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Post by Sand on Aug 25, 2018 20:25:45 GMT -5
Thank you, Katanaheart! It's appreciated. I agree, I can tell people are being vague with their attempts in not lashing out at others, but at some point, it does come out. The thing is, they have no concept of control when it comes to their tempers and I feel that if they truly paid attention to the announcement and didn't allow themselves to get caught up in discussions of battle cats, then we wouldn't be at this point.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Aug 25, 2018 20:33:10 GMT -5
I agree with Katanaheart, but I also think that there are some individuals that are trying, but relapse into getting aggravated and hateful because that's how WG was for a bit before the "clean-up." I think you guys are doing a good job, but it's the community itself that needs work. The staff can only do so much. I will admit that I am one of the forumers that still need to work on being cool and not getting rude and defensive.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Aug 25, 2018 20:43:59 GMT -5
I have not seen much change however, that said, because I hang out almost exclusively in the Fan Fiction board, my experience with my fellow authors has been nothing but fun and pleasant. Everyone treats each other with respect and I have not seen any "lashing out" or bad behavior there.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 25, 2018 20:44:54 GMT -5
I personally never saw that big of an issue, though probably because I don’t really ever get angry at things and I enjoy debating. But things are going fine, and you guys do a great job!
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Post by sylveon on Aug 26, 2018 4:25:34 GMT -5
I honestly didn't notice it much before (but I admittedly don't click every thread). at worse I saw a few posts a week. But now I can only think of one thread where people got heated, but people are making a conscious effort to control themselves
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Post by Tas on Aug 26, 2018 6:12:20 GMT -5
I believe that a few weeks ago, there was a sudden wave of aggression on multiple threads at that time. I don't know why WG was getting so heated suddenly, but I definitely think it's cooled down since. Of course, every now and then a discussion will get heated and the staff are doing an excellent job in ... well, reigning us back in, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 9:38:33 GMT -5
I think it’s improved since that sudden outburst that happened when the announcement was put up, but now that CT is coming out tensions are flaring again cause while most people can control their tempers over more basic topics, this one- along with other topics involving debates over abuse or neglect- seem to be most prone for people to get upset and lash out.
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Aug 26, 2018 12:09:32 GMT -5
You should probably keep up the warnings for a little while longer like Aqua said. Sometimes if the thread is about a pretty agrumental topic like, let's say the relationship between Crowfeather and his past lovers, you're gonna need the warnings up because those topics can get out of control sometimes.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 26, 2018 14:02:11 GMT -5
Im saying other, for obvious reasons. Although I sometimes go out of my way to defuse situations myself where users actively actually go out of their way to attack one another with personal insults. I think there needs to be a noted line between a debate and an argument. Also, users sticking their necks into situations where they don't belong and only fanning the flames, just makes situations worse imo. I get the mods are doing their best, and they're not at fault. But sometimes it feels like you can't even simply talk about fictional cats and debate normally without suddenly being accused of being a bully or something. Debating and arguing, at least to me are two different things, people have the right to speak their mind and opinions so as long as they don't personally attack one another. And I feel like instead everything is just being clumped together and labeled as "heated" or "toxic".
I'm not saying every user is perfect, even I myself may be in certain situations, but I also do apologize and reflect on my actions if I feel that others are right. But it's pretty noticeable that sometimes it feels other users hold grudges, and it's low key, "suffocating" which is one of the reasons I'm barely on the threads nowadays, that and because of irl issues. And again, this is all personal opinion, and honestly, I don't want people possibly coming at my throat about it.
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Post by Basement Cat on Aug 26, 2018 15:03:28 GMT -5
Truthfully, I don't think anything has changed. If I may be blunt, there has always been an underlying issue of passive aggressivity, and for some reason, this forum doesn't know how to distinguish debating from a discussion.
The issue is that you have people who only respond with debating, and do not talk to others with any casual, basic conversation, and you have people who take things too personally, making a topic about them.
The only way I can see this being addressed is if we acknowledge that this has been going on since day one, and try and communicate.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Aug 26, 2018 15:37:46 GMT -5
Im saying other, for obvious reasons. Although I sometimes go out of my way to defuse situations myself where users actively actually go out of their way to attack one another with personal insults. I think there needs to be a noted line between a debate and an argument. Also, users sticking their necks into situations where they don't belong and only fanning the flames, just makes situations worse imo. I get the mods are doing their best, and they're not at fault. But sometimes it feels like you can't even simply talk about fictional cats and debate normally without suddenly being accused of being a bully or something. Debating and arguing, at least to me are two different things, people have the right to speak their mind and opinions so as long as they don't personally attack one another. And I feel like instead everything is just being clumped together and labeled as "heated" or "toxic". I'm not saying every user is perfect, even I myself may be in certain situations, but I also do apologize and reflect on my actions if I feel that others are right. But it's pretty noticeable that sometimes it feels other users hold grudges, and it's low key, "suffocating" which is one of the reasons I'm barely on the threads nowadays, that and because of irl issues. And again, this is all personal opinion, and honestly, I don't want people possibly coming at my throat about it. Okay, thinking back on things, I'd like to say I understand this more. Now, this I've noticed -- there really is a fine line between debating and arguing, and it seems they're all being labeled as arguing, even if it doesn't seem like it is. Like every other post, someone's asking people to cool down, even though it seems (again, seems...I struggle reading tone apparently lol) nobody is even mad or even doing anything beyond talking maybe a bit heatedly, which again, I don't see as a big deal, but maybe that's 'cause I debate irl? I think it's fine to be a bit intense when it comes to debating, and that's all I see here: debates with strong, but respectful opinions. So maybe that's why all this flew over my head, since that was all I was picking up. It seems like conversation is going to quickly become stifled if everyone is quieted, though, and don't feel they can post at all.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 26, 2018 16:06:50 GMT -5
Im saying other, for obvious reasons. Although I sometimes go out of my way to defuse situations myself where users actively actually go out of their way to attack one another with personal insults. I think there needs to be a noted line between a debate and an argument. Also, users sticking their necks into situations where they don't belong and only fanning the flames, just makes situations worse imo. I get the mods are doing their best, and they're not at fault. But sometimes it feels like you can't even simply talk about fictional cats and debate normally without suddenly being accused of being a bully or something. Debating and arguing, at least to me are two different things, people have the right to speak their mind and opinions so as long as they don't personally attack one another. And I feel like instead everything is just being clumped together and labeled as "heated" or "toxic". I'm not saying every user is perfect, even I myself may be in certain situations, but I also do apologize and reflect on my actions if I feel that others are right. But it's pretty noticeable that sometimes it feels other users hold grudges, and it's low key, "suffocating" which is one of the reasons I'm barely on the threads nowadays, that and because of irl issues. And again, this is all personal opinion, and honestly, I don't want people possibly coming at my throat about it. Okay, thinking back on things, I'd like to say I understand this more. Now, this I've noticed -- there really is a fine line between debating and arguing, and it seems they're all being labeled as arguing, even if it doesn't seem like it is. Like every other post, someone's asking people to cool down, even though it seems (again, seems...I struggle reading tone apparently lol) nobody is even mad or even doing anything beyond talking maybe a bit heatedly, which again, I don't see as a big deal, but maybe that's 'cause I debate irl? I think it's fine to be a bit intense when it comes to debating, and that's all I see here: debates with strong, but respectful opinions. So maybe that's why all this flew over my head, since that was all I was picking up. It seems like conversation is going to quickly become stifled if everyone is quieted, though, and don't feel they can post at all. I agree, personally, I find it slightly "annoying" that people who debate, and enjoy debating are also grouped with the same type of people that would go out of their way to personally attack others or even troll on the threads. I used to also be on a debate team irl, so I don't mind a little "heated" debates, now and then. I don't see anything wrong with talking back and forth with others on subjects, even controversial ones, as long as people stay within that subject, whether its addressing fiction, the fandom, or other things in general. However I draw the line at personal attacks, and I feel that people are confusing debates with arguments/flat-out personal attacks. When they're not one in the same. People can be passionate about certain subjects, I am sometimes, and I admit that. However, I've never personally attacked someone over a subject, like using personal insults and such. I feel that if things tread into that territory then yeah, I can see it as toxic. On the matter of passive aggressiveness, I think that's really up to perspective. Someone can seem to be passive aggressive to another person, but that's only really because the other person is reading it that way. And the first person probably doesn't even intend that in the first place, in a way it is a miscommunication. And once that happens, it seems others hop on the same type of train of miscommunication. I can understand things like name dropping, requoting, and constant harassment being seen as blatant outright passive aggression. But simply debating, even if it's a little heated, or just simply stating facts or opinion, doesn't seem like it falls in the same category. At least for me, it doesn't. I've personally found myself in such a situation a few times, where people mistake my passionate debating for passive aggression, or me simply *shrugging* something off after making a point is labeled as "toxic". I don't easily get bothered by things, especially nonsensical things, but it eventually it's tiring to have to deal with people accusing you of things when that wasn't your intention or the case to begin with. It really does come back down to perspective I guess. But again, that's just my opinion.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 26, 2018 16:46:47 GMT -5
Yes. I agree. It's a lot of perspective too. I don't feel like things get as heated and bad as others do. This being said, I can appreciate moderation when topics do get seriously offensive, but at the same time I do not like getting labeled as heated or toxic when I am simply expressing an opinion with passion in my text. Personally, I would rather people PM me if they find my posts offensive or problematic rather than having threads shut down or reporting people before they get a chance to explain themselves or even talk one on one. If we want this supposedly dramatic WG portion to get better, a lot of it has to do with better communication one on one. PM is a wonderful aspect this forums has that the old one did not. We can talk in private and reduce the drama while allowing respectful debates to take place too.
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Post by Sand on Aug 26, 2018 17:49:46 GMT -5
Communication is key when it comes to forums or, really, everything. It's hard for people to read tone online in general, so it's not really a surprise that when people debate or argue it gets worse. I think I posted something about debate vs argument on a thread awhile back. People either: a.) don't understand the difference between debate and argument, b.) believe they're the same thing because they are synonyms, c.) don't care / aren't willing to understand, or d.) actually do understand it. To add, it's impossible for me to "ban" or "not allow" debates. It would be like not allowing people to have contradicting discussions. That's not how things work for there is always a contradicting discussion to everything. Both terms below are defined by Google. debate . noun . a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward. common synonyms: discussion, discourse, dialogue, argument, counterargument
argument . noun . an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one. common synonyms: quarrel, disagreement, squabble, fight, dispute
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 22:46:56 GMT -5
In the end I think it just comes to debating over people and debating over opinions. Sure every once and a while someone will think “This person thinks that liking Ferncloud doesn’t make sense. I like Ferncloud. So they must think I’m stupid”. In those cases I think the person offended should take it easy and recognize that just because someone’s criticizing an opinion doesn’t mean they dislike people who hold them.
But when people constantly complain about other people-not just opinions- who disagree with that’s where it fuels the potential for heated arguments because right off the bat those they debate with feel like they are actually getting attacked- cause they already know whoever’s trying to change their opinion/prove they are wrong doesn’t like them. Yet it always ends up in misunderstanding anyway because Bob had no idea that Jackie saw their post 3 weeks ago saying that they hated when people defended _ when Jackie did it all the time- and so the next time Bob would respond to Jackie, Jackie would already have a bad taste in their mouth and the conversation would have more potential to sour, and even if Bob did know or in fact responded in frustration to Jackie indirectly let’s be real who admits it? Truth or not misunderstanding is always to blame and nothing gets resolved.
I don’t mind debating over opinions, I sometimes enjoy it, but as long as people constantly shout in the air how much they’re irritated by people themselves antimosity is always going to be lingering.
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Post by mocatstar on Aug 28, 2018 22:12:52 GMT -5
I honestly can't stand the arguments in warriors. I'd prefer just to post one time and stay away from them. They are bad. But other than that, I think it has kinda improved. The post made a start, and a start is better than nothing.
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Post by prophet on Aug 29, 2018 13:55:38 GMT -5
Sorry, I was gone before and since it was posted, otherwise I'd have input. I'll keep a lookout though
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 17:48:42 GMT -5
I haven't noticed change,but I was gone for a few weeks so
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Post by Redwing on Sept 1, 2018 8:52:46 GMT -5
I still see the problem where someone expresses their opinions freely, they get shut down by harsh words.
For example, I don't really see Ravenpaw and Barley as mates (just very brotherly and loyal), but some other people say rude things about how I'm wrong and stupid.
(also i have nothing bad against gay relationships. i still think of tallstar and jake as mates. its just this couple that doesnt really spark any romantic relationships)
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 1, 2018 11:49:33 GMT -5
I still see the problem where someone expresses their opinions freely, they get shut down by harsh words. For example, I don't really see Ravenpaw and Barley as mates (just very brotherly and loyal), but some other people say rude things about how I'm wrong and stupid. (also i have nothing bad against gay relationships. i still think of tallstar and jake as mates. its just this couple that doesnt really spark any romantic relationships) Well, and no offense, it could be because people see it as offensive. Because that's considered gay erasure I believe, which probably sounds silly because they're cats. But if by the "Word of God" means that Barley and Ravenpaw are a couple, just that it can't be written in due to anti-homo agendas where the book sells, it still pretty much means that they're pretty much a couple. And denying that is kinda similar to homophobia. It okay to see and view things a certain way, but there's also the stance of being careful not to be harmful, or homophobic, intentionally or not. Like, I personally don't mind Barley x Ravenpaw, but I acknowledge what the Erins said about them, but I don't ship it still. It's just not my cup of tea. But I won't go as far as denying they're a couple, just that I've never paid them enough attention. I don't know it's hard to explain....this actually reminds me of the few incidences we've had on the boards. Where people argued that cats can't be gay, during gay pride month, etc. I mean in general we have so few rep couples in warriors, with only two, sorta, confirmed couples, and one clear ace character, being Mousefur.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 1, 2018 20:18:06 GMT -5
I still see the problem where someone expresses their opinions freely, they get shut down by harsh words. For example, I don't really see Ravenpaw and Barley as mates (just very brotherly and loyal), but some other people say rude things about how I'm wrong and stupid. (also i have nothing bad against gay relationships. i still think of tallstar and jake as mates. its just this couple that doesnt really spark any romantic relationships) Well, and no offense, it could be because people see it as offensive. Because that's considered gay erasure I believe, which probably sounds silly because they're cats. But if by the "Word of God" means that Barley and Ravenpaw are a couple, just that it can't be written in due to anti-homo agendas where the book sells, it still pretty much means that they're pretty much a couple. And denying that is kinda similar to homophobia. It okay to see and view things a certain way, but there's also the stance of being careful not to be harmful, or homophobic, intentionally or not. Like, I personally don't mind Barley x Ravenpaw, but I acknowledge what the Erins said about them, but I don't ship it still. It's just not my cup of tea. But I won't go as far as denying they're a couple, just that I've never paid them enough attention. I don't know it's hard to explain....this actually reminds me of the few incidences we've had on the boards. Where people argued that cats can't be gay, during gay pride month, etc. I mean in general we have so few rep couples in warriors, with only two, sorta, confirmed couples, and one clear ace character, being Mousefur. Well I'm old school, and scientifically minded, perhaps my issue with Barley and Raven being shipped is, cats generally don't form same sex mated pairings. Cats can definitely be very very close as I have had cats that loved each other to the point of defending each other from other cats, and they slept and cuddled together, and before neutering even mounted each other on occasion, but I never saw them as a "mated" couple, because in cats of the same sex or neutered cats, mounting behavior is one of dominance. Cats have a high mating drive, that is to reproduce their species, thus same sex "matings" are highly unlikely just because of the nature of cats. But then again, this is Warriors, where we have a lot of fantasy elements in play, and such becomes a possibility. A few here and there certainly hurts nobody. We can agree or disagree, and put forth our opinions without calling each other stupid or homophobic.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 19:43:27 GMT -5
phantomstar57 I couldn't agree more.
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