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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 13, 2018 18:59:14 GMT -5
I was thinking more of them as being that person who has others padding after them, wanting to love them and whatever. I don't really see them as 'perfect' when I think about them. When you say 'mary-sue/gary-stu' I always instantly think of that person with like a squad of people following them, trying to get the person to love them. Like, how celebrities are anymore. I'm not saying it's their faults, and it's great they have so many people who enjoy them, but it's a good example of just having hordes of people coming to them the moment they call and asking how high to jump when asked to jump. You know?
As for those characters being perfect, it's an eh for me. I guess some can come off as trying too hard to be perfect, and that can be pretty annoying. But often time, they have flaws like everyone else, and those flaws are just overlooked because people want to hate those characters. Nobody's perfect, and no one can always be their best in every single situation. If that actually does manage to happen, then the story is just dull and not worth reading.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 15, 2018 20:02:19 GMT -5
Hmmm what other cliched plot lines can we come up with? Another old one that is used a lot is the abused, teased character as a youngster grows up to be a big success. It certainly works when done well, and can be a good lesson for young people being put down to strive to grow from the ugly duckling into a swan, and some of my fav stories of all time use this, but, can it be bad?
I am trying to think of one but can't at the present moment, but surely they exist.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 16, 2018 10:08:01 GMT -5
I actually tend to really enjoy these, because they rise past their abuse or self pity and make something of themselves. Like, they grow stronger and turn into a cat that they can love. This is one cliche I don't think I have any bad examples of. It's just awesome to start out with virtually nothing, or feeling like it, to becoming a great success and loving yourself. Loving yourself is the ultimate success, so to have a character go from nothing to that, it's amazing, and the process of that growth is enjoyable for me watch.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 16, 2018 13:09:40 GMT -5
I actually tend to really enjoy these, because they rise past their abuse or self pity and make something of themselves. Like, they grow stronger and turn into a cat that they can love. This is one cliche I don't think I have any bad examples of. It's just awesome to start out with virtually nothing, or feeling like it, to becoming a great success and loving yourself. Loving yourself is the ultimate success, so to have a character go from nothing to that, it's amazing, and the process of that growth is enjoyable for me watch. I agree. I can't think of a bad one at the moment. Those types of stories are ones of struggle and triumph usually. I suppose its more cliche to use the abuse and self pity to create a villain, that goes off the deep end and becomes a killer. But I guess there has to be a reason someone would become that way, or its worse.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 16, 2018 21:45:45 GMT -5
Yeah, even when one becomes a villain it's pretty nice. Because, as you said, there has to be a reason for it usually.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 18, 2018 18:02:42 GMT -5
Hum. What about the kittypet ending up as a Warrior? Every now and again I want to see the kittypet go back to being a kittypet. I see the other way happening an awful lot.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 18, 2018 19:40:45 GMT -5
Hum. What about the kittypet ending up as a Warrior? Every now and again I want to see the kittypet go back to being a kittypet. I see the other way happening an awful lot. A good one, LOL esp since I used that one to get Kyestorm and Demonstone into the Clans. I almost had them return to their two-legs in one incarnation, but I just knew she'd never leave all her kits! When, in the CURSE Marathon New Blood Tale Kyestrm gets kidnapped and is living a kittypet life because the two legs knew she was a Maine Coon, she still wanted to return to her family, which she eventually does. And yep, it sure is a very common one among all of us. I would imagine had Kye and Demon B's twolegs looked for them they may have returned to their kittypet life! I never did make it clear if they survived or not, or what happemed to the cottage. Hmmm gives me an idea of how her story may end but I have to mull on it.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 19, 2018 16:24:37 GMT -5
I'm generally okay with it going either way. This just seems to one thing that occurs quite often but I never get tired of. I really enjoy seeing a cat go from lifestyle to adapting to a completely different one. While it could be interesting to see a kittypet go back to being a kittypet after doing things with a clan for a while, I think I really enjoy having them stay and make something new of themselves, because they often seem to have a much more fulfilling life in the clan. But, then again, we never see too much of what it's like as a kittypet either, besides being pampered occasionally and clan cats frowning upon them for it.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 19, 2018 16:34:07 GMT -5
I suppose a kittypet life isn't as exciting as Clan life LOL And yes watching them adapt and become a productive member of the Clan is always interesting as there are so many possibilities. Kyestorm and Demon B due to their breed adapted well, but, I often think about what if they had been Oriental shorthairs? Or Sphinxes? Or some other breed? I have often mulled a tale around my head that Kyestorm or one of the others find a kitten of such breeding lost on a fine Green leaf day, but as the kitten grows, it is ill-equipped to handle the outdoors in the cold, but eventually adapts and his/her Clanmates help. Haven't gone much beyond that at all, but might be an interesting one for the stories set in New Blood's future.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 19, 2018 16:38:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that would be cool. I want to incorporate such things into LI with Cleo, but then again, it's set in Florida, so it doesn't get too cold there very often. Mud the mud will definitely really effect them in their new area. I would like to see more stories that do have such cats, like sphinx and such, in climates where they can't adapt to clan life as easily, or are even shunned or judged, like Cleo was at first, for their lack of fur or odd fur textures. That'd be pretty neat.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 19, 2018 23:40:51 GMT -5
I agree. And sometimes, in real cold winters, Florida can experience freezing temps. I really hope Cleo is ok!
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 20, 2018 13:52:53 GMT -5
That is true, but I don't think they will be out during winter. So far, they've been going through all of this within a few days, maybe a week's time. Hurricanes take things away in minutes, cause damage lasting for years, and within days people are coming back to collect their things sometimes.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 20, 2018 17:03:44 GMT -5
That is true, but I don't think they will be out during winter. So far, they've been going through all of this within a few days, maybe a week's time. Hurricanes take things away in minutes, cause damage lasting for years, and within days people are coming back to collect their things sometimes. That is all true.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 20, 2018 20:36:40 GMT -5
Alright, what about a cat becoming leader after saving the clan? What are our thoughts there?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 21, 2018 10:40:23 GMT -5
Alright, what about a cat becoming leader after saving the clan? What are our thoughts there? That is a tricky one. In the Clans that might happen if the leader and deputy are killed. But in other tales, it all depends how the character got there. If all the cats agree, and make him a reluctant leader who excels later on, or knows his/her limitations and defers to another more worthy individual, I like that idea. Its a growth process and a possible path to redemption. But a cat that becomes leader after saving the clan and becomes a tyrant, well in that case a new character would have to beat him and claim the crown for me to be happy because I despise when evil wins.. It works well if done right.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 21, 2018 14:10:38 GMT -5
I like to think in general, it's okay. Like you said, it has to more be earned, and they have to be a good leader in the end. In the case of Firestar, I'm happy with this. But, I know in some stories it's just a thing that happens because they are considered a hero, though they might not be a good leader at all. While I don't find it a bad cliche, I do enjoy breaking this one quite a bit. Like, how in Ravenskull's Dream, Ravenskull did not become leader, even after what she did for the clans. She stayed a warrior until her days as an elder, allowing other worthy cats to take the role.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 21, 2018 14:57:09 GMT -5
Yep I remember Ravenskull's story. If anyone deserved it she sure did with her intellect and wit. But she felt she was not leader material. To be a good leader, one has ro want that task either consciously or by a deep instinct. Same with Kyestorm. Would have been too easy and clicje to have the coyotes kill off Bramblestar and Squirrelflight and others, and have StarClan choose her. She sometimes cated leaderlike, bumping heads with Bramblestar and others, but she was more interested in her kits, and any kits! In the future, her kits do become leaders, but in the Traditional way.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 21, 2018 19:45:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I do know that Kyestorm never became leader. Though, I also know she did have some really good attributes for it. I think she would have made a decent leader, but it's better that she didn't get the position just for the story itself and avoiding that cliche. The more traditional way is always best, in my mind.
Now, what about the cliche of kits being born at the very beginning of the story, when it has no real significance to showing the scene?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 21, 2018 20:03:40 GMT -5
That one is done a lot, and not sure why. The character generally does not remember the birth. If one is going to start as early as possible it has to be the character's 1st memories, unless, the prologue is done from a secondary character's pov like the mom. But if it has no real significant part in the story not sure why one would do that.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 21, 2018 21:38:55 GMT -5
yeah, I don't usually see too much significance with it. However, I did slightly do this in a different way in WITSOP, but I did it mostly to give the prophecy and show Featherstar and Bluepool as characters. You know, give them some spotlight and first impressions. But, generally, starting with the character being born is odd and doesn't have much purpose to me.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 21, 2018 22:34:31 GMT -5
Unless the birth has significance, in that its perilous, or somehow extraordinary in setting or time, it does seem wasteful to start there.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 22, 2018 14:21:11 GMT -5
I don't particularly see it's useful to start there unless something happened when they were a kitten. If we use our books for examples, as we seem to, then I had a point for beginning at Hollyheart's kithood in Mortality because I needed to show that Whitefire had been there since she was born. For Smokepaw in Where There's Smoke I needed to show the situation he grew up in under Tigerstar's rule. But if there's no reason to start there then don't. Don't go there. Start where you need to start.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 22, 2018 16:16:44 GMT -5
True. In TRAPPED I started in Gentleoak's very young kittenhood because t showed the beginning of his relationship with StarClan's Yellowfang. And did the same with HER PROTEGE when we saw the same tale from Yellowfang's pov. (Wonder whatever happened to the contest that spawned that tale) In that tale she was attracted to Gentleoak since his birth.
You're right. It has to have significance to the story and characters. And in our cases I think we've done ok in that regard.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 24, 2018 17:32:17 GMT -5
Ending with a character's death has to have the same relevance.
Actually, to be exact, the first finished fic I read did that rather badly. They ended with the main character's death but it had no real point within the story, so I ended up really disliking that as an ending.
Thoughts on killing off a character's parents?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 24, 2018 21:47:59 GMT -5
UGH stupid site punted me after I wrote this huge paragraph on how I hate a lot of death in stories. I dislike when main characters are killed off. Only exception is when it is a life story. Its why I dislike horror when characters are developed only to be killed off in evil ways. Bleh. On a character's parents being killed, I'm not a fan. I guess it depends on the circumstance, but if they are developed important characters, no. IF the deaths are used as a prop to drive the main character--eh, maybe depending on if its done well. Heck in the NEW BLOOD tale Theif in Morning Light I wrote thru tears when I had Sunflight and Gabbiflight remember Demonstone because by then he is gone. In these future tales I well eventually have to kill off Kyestorm, but its gonna kill me.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 26, 2018 14:09:55 GMT -5
*hugs Phantom*
On that vain, I hate the trope of killing off the mentor figure as soon as they have no more to teach the main character. -.-
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 26, 2018 15:51:29 GMT -5
Oh Minted! I hate that one , too!!!
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 27, 2018 16:57:34 GMT -5
It's 90% of the reason my favorite character always dies.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 30, 2018 21:27:48 GMT -5
It's okay, Mint. I can find all kinds of new ways to kill off your favorite character >:3
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 31, 2018 17:52:53 GMT -5
X'D How reassuring, Sea.
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