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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 30, 2018 12:49:46 GMT -5
Oooo! Strong leaders! Since they're often background characters I don't always pay attention, but you are right. A lot of the time they are physically strong. (I've been inspired. Next leader I writes gonna be a cunning, little monster.) I like seeing a balance. Like, I'm cool if they're strong. But if they're a complete idiot then I'm just going to sit here and wonder why in the world they were made into a leader. Down a logical line, I'd think about how a previous leader chose a cat. If I was leader and there was a physically strong and smart cat then I'd pick them as deputy, even if there was a cat that was just a bit smarter, but not physically strong, in the clan. The reason being is that, sad to say, the leader will be a figure head. They're going to be the one other cats see. They're the ones who are expected to be at the head of a battle charge because the other clans need to see the clan is still powerful. And I'd need to make sure that this clan had a strong figure head so its position of a clan didn't waver. However, if the smart cat who isn't physically smart had better ties in the clan and was a good at socializing and things like that, than they'd be a good contestant. Because as a relatively peace-loving leader I'd want a cat who was a good people-person. Both in and outside of the clan. One that is cunning enough not to be undercut and one who is good enough with others that they can defuse unneeded hostilities. Then they could become a figure head and a good representation for my clan in another way. At gatherings and personal one-on-one meetings with leaders of other clans. They'd still have enough show. But I can't have a leader who's always in camp and plotting the battles from the side-lines. A country has to have a visible leader to get power and attention. The same thing for clans. And if the leader is ever seen as weak than the clan is called weak. Then the clan is taken advantage of more and attacked more. So if the physically strong (and not a dunce) cat is a better figure-head than they get to be leader. Better that and have the very smart cat be an integral part of the clan than a weak clan because the smart leader is never seen because they can't hold their own in a physical fight. Oh these are fun to talk about! Thank Sea!
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 30, 2018 13:58:35 GMT -5
I totally agree that a smart leader has to be strong too, but I was thinking more of leaders who are generally just strong and maybe aggressive but not really the smartest. Like, for example, I think of Blackstar at the beginning of the books. He was a strong cat and aggressive leader. He, however, wasn't the smartest. He made a lot of mistakes, such as attacking ThunderClan or overstepping the borders many times. And he even sent kits to fight before. No smart leader would ever do that. Then again, I can't remember times I saw him in battle either. But then there's Leopardstar, who did the same thing with battles and overstepping borders. She was in a lot of fights too with ThunderClan, like over Sunning Rocks. Yet the choices to battle over lust for territory cost her clan warriors and caused many unnecessary injuries.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 30, 2018 15:18:04 GMT -5
True, I see your point. Admittedly, the appointment of Blackstar was by a leader who had much the same outlook as him. They searched for a aggressive cat because that's what they looked for in themselves. And ones that thought kits should be raised into war to have more perfect soldiers. Think he was in the battle in Fading Echoes. But I don't really remember him being a key player in one.
Leopardstar, however, is a very good example of a choice I don't completely get. It seemed like both her and Blackstar were both very prideful and I think that's the pitfall that a lot of writer's might hit. I don't see it so much as they lacked intelligence. I remember several points in the books where those particular examples could be seen as smart. However, it's the cliche where the leaders fall under pride before they think. They don't consider there own boundaries and what they can support. That's when I seem to see photocopy leaders that all look the same. I can see where you're coming from with Leopardstar, that's a good point. Clearly a vocal and forward leader who takes an age old battle that her clan has been fighting for years and doesn't think. But in general I'm not sure I see that trope too often, at least not in fics. Usually I see a balanced leader who is usually fairly smart - or at least a good tactician - but still physically strong. However, I don't really ever see a physically weak leader but make up in smarts. So I have to say that's a bit annoying because I'd love to see that now. It sounds like it would make a good background character. o3o
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 30, 2018 15:21:25 GMT -5
Ah the big strong leader with no brain LOL Those can be funny, but why is it that most of them tend to be cruel? Might be interesting to take one who is not so smart, but good-hearted but is a bumbling fool as a fighter. He wins only because he is so large he gets lucky. Problem is would such a cat rise to leader in the Clans? Personally I like a big strong leader with a brain that knows how to delegate and is not afraid to do so. Indiclaw is big an strong but she has a temper, and sometimes acts before thinking. She would probably be the next character I write about.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 30, 2018 15:40:30 GMT -5
A physically weak leader, in Clan life, would likely get killed too often in battle, and not last very long. True he or she could probably have a bodyguard but in battle a leader must be able to fight. Now a small leader who is very swift and agile with mad skills as a fighter might do very well because its unexpected from an enemy. I agree Mint, the cliched leader who falls to her/his vain pride is overused. I have to admit in NEW BLOOD's future most of the leaders are big and strong just because they came from Kyestorm and Demonstone's litters, but all of them gained their positions with their smarts along with brawn, as well as the caring hearts. Even Indiclaw. For all of her temper, snappishness and impulsiveness, she NEVER would have fallen victim to Darktail (had he survived the thrashing by Indiclaw;s brother) not would she have ever tolerated using kits as warriors. Just enough rudeness and rashness to fit Shadow Clan but not a speck of evil. But in that world, Kyestorm's offspring change the Clans, drawing them closer, able to face terrible enemies with a united front. And one thing for sure, the lies on top of lies, won't happen in the future, LOL and if it does well the liar will face consequences of conduct. Did I mentiom how much I despise the web of lies cliche?
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 1, 2018 17:57:13 GMT -5
Okay, but I loved Indiclaw. cx
In fan fictions on here, Phantom, do you see the lie cliche turn up very often? Or do you think we're staying mostly away from that? (Gosh, I sound like I'm interviewing you.)
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 2, 2018 11:33:29 GMT -5
Okay, but I loved Indiclaw. cx In fan fictions on here, Phantom, do you see the lie cliche turn up very often? Or do you think we're staying mostly away from that? (Gosh, I sound like I'm interviewing you.) LOL I would say for the most part, we all steer clear of it, but I do see it on occasion. :-)
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 2, 2018 12:46:41 GMT -5
I don't care for lies coming up too much when there's no real reason for it. Like, I understand if a cat lies to protect themselves, or their kits from shame or pain, but when it's just for the sake of lying it's dumb. Why lie if you really have no reason to do so? it doesn't do any good for stories.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 2, 2018 12:57:33 GMT -5
I don't care for lies coming up too much when there's no real reason for it. Like, I understand if a cat lies to protect themselves, or their kits from shame or pain, but when it's just for the sake of lying it's dumb. Why lie if you really have no reason to do so? it doesn't do any good for stories. It is one thing to lie to protect kits, or oneself in fear, but when its dragged out and goes beyond the point when anyone would break down and admit the lie that is when it drives me bonkers. That is why Kyestorm got so angry and refused to lie for Rosepetal when she found out Rosepetal's kits were Gentleoak's. Face the consequences and fight if you think you are right, and that is what happened at that Gathering. It did almost tear Kyestorm and her kin away from the Clans she grew to love, until the coyotes showed up to remind everyone the real danger and issue LOL. Lies can be good tools if it makes sense, and not used as a major plot driver where more lies pile on top of more lies. UGH. Can you tell I hate that type of trope?
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 2, 2018 14:25:48 GMT -5
Yes I can, lol. But it's very understandable. I get exactly what you mean. The plot should not be driven by lies or have more and more pile on tot he point where literally everything you've ever been told is a lie. It must be used in modesty and with good reason to be a useful tool.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 3, 2018 18:02:36 GMT -5
This is actually helping me think about my own writing. I'm impressed! *claps*
Okay, opinions on the 'chosen one' trope? Where everyone seems to ignore the fact that wars and dangerous things are defeated by a unit instead of an individual?
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 3, 2018 18:26:11 GMT -5
Yeah, this is making me think about my writings, too. Discussions are helpful.
The 'chosen one' trope isn't too bad in my opinion. Most of the time. I think it's actually pretty easy to write with them. I used Icespire for this. He was the chosen one, but the DF was defeated by the entire clan. Yet, the main villain that had to be defeated was Hollyfrost, which he did do. So, like, the chosen one can do important things, like take down the head of an opposing force, or maybe take the journey that needs to be taken if there is one. But, the rest of the cats can also help with the side characters, pretty much. I personally find these kinds of things easy to write. however, there can be a fine line when it comes to the chosen one being too OP in situations. Such as them defeating the threat too easily and quickly, or taking down lesser threats that way consistently. I guess it comes down to how OP the chosen one is made and what they are actually chosen for, so it all really depends.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 3, 2018 22:48:41 GMT -5
This is actually helping me think about my own writing. I'm impressed! *claps* Okay, opinions on the 'chosen one' trope? Where everyone seems to ignore the fact that wars and dangerous things are defeated by a unit instead of an individual? I don't particularly like "chosen one" tropes. It almost gives away everything because it implies the main character will persevere. Then the author usually falls on the "chosen one" hating that he/she is such, and the whole tale resolves around their angst, and whining, or running away or trying to escape the destiny you know he/she will eventually fulfill. It is better if nobody knows who the "chosen one" is util the character realizes it after a lot of growing and hardship, and is needed to do their thing or die trying.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 3, 2018 22:51:07 GMT -5
Yeah, this is making me think about my writings, too. Discussions are helpful. The 'chosen one' trope isn't too bad in my opinion. Most of the time. I think it's actually pretty easy to write with them. I used Icespire for this. He was the chosen one, but the DF was defeated by the entire clan. Yet, the main villain that had to be defeated was Hollyfrost, which he did do. So, like, the chosen one can do important things, like take down the head of an opposing force, or maybe take the journey that needs to be taken if there is one. But, the rest of the cats can also help with the side characters, pretty much. I personally find these kinds of things easy to write. however, there can be a fine line when it comes to the chosen one being too OP in situations. Such as them defeating the threat too easily and quickly, or taking down lesser threats that way consistently. I guess it comes down to how OP the chosen one is made and what they are actually chosen for, so it all really depends. Ah and see? NObody knew Icespire was the chosen one. He might have known but apparently even his siter didn't. I'd say WELL DONE with that trope, Sea.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 4, 2018 21:45:58 GMT -5
He had no idea, lol. He was in the dark and just did what he had to do in the moment to save his sister. That's what made him the chosen one. And thank you! I really do personally enjoy that twist that no one saw coming. I get what you'e saying too. A lot fo the chosen ones do tend to whine, and we do know thy will eventually do what they are supposed to. That's no fun at all.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 4, 2018 22:18:50 GMT -5
This is actually helping me think about my own writing. I'm impressed! *claps* Okay, opinions on the 'chosen one' trope? Where everyone seems to ignore the fact that wars and dangerous things are defeated by a unit instead of an individual? I don't particularly like "chosen one" tropes. It almost gives away everything because it implies the main character will persevere. Then the author usually falls on the "chosen one" hating that he/she is such, and the whole tale resolves around their angst, and whining, or running away or trying to escape the destiny you know he/she will eventually fulfill. It is better if nobody knows who the "chosen one" is util the character realizes it after a lot of growing and hardship, and is needed to do their thing or die trying.*makes a lot of notes for my novel* Danke, danke. This is very helpful. o.o
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 4, 2018 22:21:06 GMT -5
Any opinions about the 'I am your father' trope? Me and my book club did a think when we tried to pick our favorite and least favorite trope. I think love triangles got first in least and 'i am your father' as favorite.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 5, 2018 17:07:48 GMT -5
I don't see too much of that in Warriors. From what I have, such as a forbidden love like Leafpool and Crowfeather, it was pretty good. When it was revealed that Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather were their kits, it was pretty cool. I enjoyed it, so I suppose when it's done right with only a few clues but nothing too obvious until the reveal, I like it.
I also have no idea when I will actually write something for the Potluck. I have midterms coming up fast...
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 6, 2018 10:10:32 GMT -5
Any opinions about the 'I am your father' trope? Me and my book club did a think when we tried to pick our favorite and least favorite trope. I think love triangles got first in least and 'i am your father' as favorite. I llove the I'm your father" trope most of the time. The love triangle thing is so overdone these days . its everywhere. I love the I am your father if its done when the kits are young enough to embrace the idea or its not from abandonment.. Wiith Hawkwing and twigpaw and Violetpaw it was so well done, because it wasn't a love triangle or forbidden love that produced the kits. But accident and terrible circumstance that did that. I was in tears when Hawkwing 1st met his kits and told them he was their dad.. And when Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather found out I was cheering and saying about time as this proved that a Medicine cat can have kits and do his/her job.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 6, 2018 10:13:21 GMT -5
I don't see too much of that in Warriors. From what I have, such as a forbidden love like Leafpool and Crowfeather, it was pretty good. When it was revealed that Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather were their kits, it was pretty cool. I enjoyed it, so I suppose when it's done right with only a few clues but nothing too obvious until the reveal, I like it. I also have no idea when I will actually write something for the Potluck. I have midterms coming up fast... I have something written up already LOL The story I kept putting it off but this made me write it. So it will be ready when or if I get a turn.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 7, 2018 1:27:59 GMT -5
Any opinions about the 'I am your father' trope? Me and my book club did a think when we tried to pick our favorite and least favorite trope. I think love triangles got first in least and 'i am your father' as favorite. I llove the I'm your father" trope most of the time. The love triangle thing is so overdone these days . its everywhere. I love the I am your father if its done when the kits are young enough to embrace the idea or its not from abandonment.. Wiith Hawkwing and twigpaw and Violetpaw it was so well done, because it wasn't a love triangle or forbidden love that produced the kits. But accident and terrible circumstance that did that. I was in tears when Hawkwing 1st met his kits and told them he was their dad.. And when Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather found out I was cheering and saying about time as this proved that a Medicine cat can have kits and do his/her job.Oh yes! I really liked the one with Jay, Holly, and Lion. That was really cool. ^^ Sea's right. I don't see it used often in fics. I'm trying to think of another one that sometimes bugs people, but I can't remember one. Heh heh, whoops. In what cases would a love triangle be done well for either of you?
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 7, 2018 13:00:39 GMT -5
Hmm love triangle, I auppose for me it would work if it isn't filled with lie upon lie upon lie. Like with Bumblestripe and Dovewing, with her swinging between Tigerheart and him, was ok, but poor Bumblestripe just got a bum deal. So when I wrote about that in NEW BLOOD I decided to give Bumblestripe someone who loves him, thus causing some jealusly in Dovewing but also gives her freedom to go to igerheart. Bumblestripe deserved Maplesong, and in Chap 5 I think it was Kyestorm tells him he's a fine tom and didn't deserve that treatment. It might be fun to hone in on that, and Maplesong's infatuation with him for her entire short life that comes to a head after that battle The love triangle that has one of the characters secretly seeing two lovers and its just a tangled web of lies I see too much of and actually go :::yawn:: sometimes and the usual "OMG tell the damed truth and be done wit it. The cliche where one character loves both equally, and can't choose, and cintinues ti date or has households with each one, yada yada are just too common. The character usually ends up with neither in the end LOL.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 7, 2018 13:08:47 GMT -5
I don't care for love triangles too much, but I don't mind them when the main on in the triangle loves someone and that someone loves them back but is nervous to admit it or doesn't like them at all. So the third party comes in(hopefully the main one's best friend) and admits their feelings first. This causes emotional conflict between all three characters, and, if done right, causes us to ship two of them and get invested in the relationship. In this case, it's also fun to guess which one the main one will try to go for: the one they love but doesn't love them back/won't admit their love, or the one they only really like as a good friend but know this one has feelings for them. It's, in short, more emotionally investable and harder to predict the choice.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 7, 2018 17:51:24 GMT -5
That scenario can work if done well and often can be good as a comedic situation mixed with some drama. In my scifi novels that sort of thing doesn't occur, but, because of their bonding system things can go bonkers one one will bond to another but the other's body does not respond likewise. Or a incomplete bond where they thik they are bonded, until someone comes along and bonds to one of them for real, breaking the other's heart. I am oversimplifying it since its a more complicated physiological system but basically they pretty much have no choice!
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 8, 2018 23:50:04 GMT -5
I must read your Sci-Fi book because I just got really curious, Phantom. XD
Okay cool! I have a love triangle planned and I wasn't sure of if I was handling it in a 'oh god no' way. It seems to follow your pref, Sea, so I just have to see if I'm a good enough writer to pull it off.
As someone who personally only likes romance some of the time I have to say that love triangles are okay-ish. When I get invested in a ship oh boy do I get invested in a ship though. CX
I can't think of any more cliches right now, if I'm honest.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 9, 2018 13:39:20 GMT -5
I must read your Sci-Fi book because I just got really curious, Phantom. XD Okay cool! I have a love triangle planned and I wasn't sure of if I was handling it in a 'oh god no' way. It seems to follow your pref, Sea, so I just have to see if I'm a good enough writer to pull it off. As someone who personally only likes romance some of the time I have to say that love triangles are okay-ish. When I get invested in a ship oh boy do I get invested in a ship though. CX I can't think of any more cliches right now, if I'm honest. Hey Minted, if you're curious you can actually read excerpts on my website. Link is in my profile but I'll put it here too. Furlitian Tales & Other Stories
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 9, 2018 23:24:13 GMT -5
Oh yeah! I forgot about that! I'll go check them out!
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Oct 12, 2018 14:25:41 GMT -5
What about mary-sue/gary-stus?
I don't see them too often in fanfiction anymore, not here anyway. Other fanfics, sure. I don't care for it too much, honestly. However, if the recipient of all the affection doesn't really do anything to gain it(such as flirting with everyone) or doesn't try to be a 'bad boy' or girl where they want the attention but act rude tot hose giving it to them, then I'm okay with it. Like, if someone is just being themselves and a few people enjoy them for it, then it's not so bad, all the time. Sometimes, it can be, but there are a few occasions where it can be done well. Although, I never do do like it when those giving the attention say that they love them or are falling in love with them after spending like a day with that person. That'd just stupid.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Oct 13, 2018 10:25:47 GMT -5
Hmm Mary Sues and Stus-its easy to be bored with them as when they are so perfect that they do everything right, and luck always goes their way, and they are perfect in appearance . .there is no real body and grit to the story. Even superheros have issues that can cloud judgement or cause fights. In my books the main characters all have personality quirks, a bad temper, impatient, or stubborn, or quiet and serene to a fault, or some other issue they deal with. With Kyestorm , yes she is a hero of sorts, but sure isn't a perfect being who does everything right LOL She is a stubborn she-cat who just cannot handle the thought of harm to kits and loses her mind when that is a threat. Even if you have a strong, smart, beautiful character they have to have something that makes them real.
Of course w you can go the opposite way and have your main character be total failure, a whining crybaby who exasperates the reader more than garners sympathy. Is there a name for that? LOL
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Oct 13, 2018 16:31:09 GMT -5
I haven't seen enough of them to really have an opinion. I think the few I've seen are okay? Because usually they aren't a major character and are pulled away from the attention of the viewer. Because they're rarely main characters I also chalk it up to the point of view. To some people there is that 'perfect character'. Someone who is beautiful and seems to always get what they want. But they can't see into that person's head, so I don't often put too much thought into it. In other cases I really don't like when both parties of a love interest at once are proposing to each other and so forth. I need a longer time, no matter how good looking one or both of the parties are.
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