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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on May 12, 2017 22:55:29 GMT -5
And bump for late night.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on May 17, 2017 22:58:56 GMT -5
bump
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on May 24, 2017 14:07:17 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on May 28, 2017 11:16:18 GMT -5
bump
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Jun 22, 2017 19:07:31 GMT -5
boop
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Jun 25, 2017 18:18:09 GMT -5
bump
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Apr 17, 2018 10:01:31 GMT -5
looks like I need this again now that I am back with the fanfics.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Apr 23, 2018 18:51:00 GMT -5
bump
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Jun 15, 2018 18:13:25 GMT -5
Need this again.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Jul 7, 2018 14:50:28 GMT -5
bumpers
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Aug 2, 2018 17:52:57 GMT -5
bumpy
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 22, 2018 20:03:16 GMT -5
What is your most hated Warrior story cliche? And why? Let's have a real discussion about it!
Mine is prophecies in general. I personally love it when there aren't any prophecies, so that no cat is special. Anybody, even a regular cat, can be the hero. Because, in real life, anybody can be a hero. No one really gets special dreams telling them to save everyone. It's just so nice when anyone can be the hero.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 23, 2018 11:38:16 GMT -5
I have a love /hate relationship with prophecies. If well done I don't mind them, but if not well utilized it can be almost silly.. I did use a prophecy in my fic, but for the most part, Kyestorm and her family made their own way, changed things that even Star Clan was surprised by, and I really hope it wasn't one to despise LOL. Though thinking about it now, I might have been able to do it differently without a real prophecy, maybe just urging from StarClan.
The thing that drives me crazy in many fics is and even in books in general, is the damned lies, the stupid lies that really don't need to be except without they would have no story. Those lies that make me scream "OH for StarClan's sake just TELL him/her/them already. Take yer lumps and be done with it". Ones you know are just going to drag out with the predictable anger and resentments, which leads to more lies, more predictable dumbsh*ttery I just despise. UGh can you tell how much I don't like the lies and deception? Just drives me bonkers. It has to be real good reason, and give a tale unexpected twists and turns but NOT endless lying and tangling the web. Its just so predictable and cliche. Love Triangles fall into that lie category that is so utterly predictable.
I think my 2nd petpeeve cliche is the sicko villain that is powerhungry and cold, and has no other characteristic. I am not a horror fan and these kind of villains that just kill for the sake of it I despise. Like the villians in movies like SAW or Hostel, ugh, predictable and disgusting.
A character that becomes leader after saving everyone from something isn't terrible, unless it is undeserved, or if someone else is more worthy. In my fics Kyestorm nor Demonstone ever become leaders, but, in the future, their kits do.
Main character being a great fighter doesn't bug me, but being a wimpy whining failure at fighting does. That we see a lot of, warriors who have trouble fighting, and whine about it, the insecurities, the inability to get over it. A lot of these characters would end up dead because of their indecision and insecurity.
As for characters being born at the beginning of their story, it is fine, as long as there is reason to show the character's development there. For example a personality trait that is there from near day one, or some other important influence it has on the character.
I'm pretty flexible in what cliche'd things I may accept IF the story is good but I hate the LIES, on top of lies. . that is probably my biggest pet peeve cliche'd story tactic.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 23, 2018 11:45:10 GMT -5
Another that falls in the lies catagory was Onestar and Darktail's story that started the downfall of Shadowclan. I read all that and said "REALLY?? UGH Come on, man." So, as a result, in NEW BLOOD I had Phantomstrike, as an apprentice if I recall the timing of it, kill Darktail and alter the course of that ridiculous lies and wimpery history LOL
So when Sky Clan shows up, they help in the Great Battle and earn their place back in the Clans.
Sometimes I wish I could have helped write those books. . oh well.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 23, 2018 12:50:20 GMT -5
Personally, I don't like really any of the cliches, but I suppose I can be flexible a little if the story does work with them well. That's why when I write I try to take out the cliches or break them. I think WITSOP is a great example of breaking some cliches, such as the villain being power hungry.
The main villain, Hollyfrost, wanted both revenge and was just crazy. She snapped and in turn resented those who had good things work out for them, even if she felt they didn't deserve them. In her mind, she was a good cat, kind to all and a good warrior, but StarClan and her actual clan betrayed her, twisting her fragile mind and breaking it.
Also, it wasn't listed, but I like the idea of breaking the trope that the main character of the story is the special one. WITSOP, once again, is a good example of this because Hollyheart(spoilers if you haven't read) isn't the hero here. It's instead her deaf brother, Icespire. He is the one to save his sister and stop the DF invasion, even at a great cost.
Now, to go along with what you said, Phantom, a web of not needed lies can be pretty damn troublesome, even for the reader. I'm not much of a reader myself anymore, but I know that in a good story there has to be a reason for all the lies, a good one. If it's just for the sake of lying, or it's literally the only thing moving the plot along then no. Stop already. But, if it is a side thing and helps with the main character's development then I can let it slide.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 23, 2018 13:52:01 GMT -5
IMO Villians need reasons to be evil. Another cliche I dislike that is not mentioned is "born evil". Villians can be turned evil by life events, combined with a bad temperament and a narcissistic personality. But the evil from birth? Nope. In New Blood I used Harespring as a villain. just on a gut instinct, later learning he had been coerced to be a Dark Forest cat. And in the end he made amends, and turned back onto his original path, redeeming himself. Incorrigible villains like Scourge and Tigerstar (I) deserve the deaths they get.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 23, 2018 15:51:35 GMT -5
Tigerstar and Scourge did indeed get what they deserved. I was really happy when they died, same for Bone too. I like his name, but he was a bad cat. I agree that born evil just isn't a thing, too. There has to be something that happens to make them that way. For example, even Tigerstar wasn't born horrible. He had a bad mentor in Thistleclaw and his already ambitious nature was fed way too much. Even in a sense, he didn't even start off as evil, because he wanted to lead the clan to make them great. in his own mind, he was trying to do a good thing, until he got carried away as things progressed. I also do like it when we get inside looks into the villain's head and their reasoning about why they're doing what they're doing. Which breaks another cliche that the main character always has to be the good guy. It's nice to have a bad guy be the main character now and again.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 23, 2018 19:11:18 GMT -5
True. Thee main character doesn't always have to be a good guy. They can be troubled and even downright bad. But wth the baddies there should be good reason, like Tigerstar. Sometimes the most fun are the good ones that skip along that line, but never quite go all bad. They just have a few flaws that make them do bad things once in a while or defy orders. . . In New Blood's world that one is definitely Indiclaw.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 25, 2018 14:48:36 GMT -5
Oh, yes. When I write baddies, I try to give them real motivation or a good reason as to why they're bad. Like in WITSOP, Hollyfrost had a mental break, which really does happen. And I think psychological things such as that make great, compelling reasons.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 27, 2018 13:52:01 GMT -5
bump
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 28, 2018 14:53:14 GMT -5
I need more cliches to discuss!
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 28, 2018 17:20:32 GMT -5
I remember Icespire and really was saddened by his sacrifice and death. It was redreshing to watch the hero from another character's pov. Sometimes they are great as yours was, but sometimes they don't do the hero justice because the author doesn't develop the hero's character well.
On prophecies, I think ones that give the characters special powers and who are expected to follow their destiny BUT lament, worry and whine about what is to be, drive me a bit crazy. The predictable reactions and constant fretting over what to do what to do makes me want to scream and say "OH get on with it"
I rather prefer the characters live their lives, doing their best, over coming obstacles, with the prophecy or destiny fluttering as occasional background noise, as something they don't think about a lot, except when it comes to fruition and they realize either they accomplished their tasks or understand this is their life-doing what they have been doing, to help for the rest of their lives.
One cliche that was used in the Dark Forest arc was one that irritated me a bit, how they convinced good cats to join, just because they had a bit of a hard kithood or the like. I guess that would be turn the good evil too easily. Mabe that is just me LOL, but in New Blood, no way would Kyestorm and her kits and grandkits turn evil like that not even Indicllaw.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 28, 2018 18:19:53 GMT -5
Prophecies in general seem to be a big peeve of peoples'. I don't care for cats having special powers specifically for the future either. I think it just makes the story way too linear. Some prophecies can be good if it doesn't give away the plot instantly and powers aren't a thing.
I'm glad you enjoyed Icespire and that prophecy. It definitely was different to have the hero not the main character, which is exactly what I was going for with that.
I know what you mean with the DF arch! There really should have been more of a reason for those cats to join evil. Nobody switches that quickly.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 29, 2018 9:25:29 GMT -5
We both used prophecies in our fics but in different ways. and not in the cliched fashion. Sometimes in those tales its easy to skip ahead to the end and read and know pretty much what happened. It's predictable sometimes. Even with movies. I don't know if it is my age and how much I have read and viewed but so easy to predict what is going to happen. I must say with your tale and Icespire I did not see that coming :-)
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 29, 2018 18:22:10 GMT -5
I know exactly what you mean! I watch movies with my bf sometimes that I never seen before but has, and he gets mad at me when I predict the plot in the first few minutes. It's like that with a lot of prophecies too. I am so glad mine provided a good twist to it. Now, if only more stories with them could do the same. Even when Firestar first came to the clans it was pretty easy to know what would happen.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 29, 2018 21:51:04 GMT -5
OMG just lost everything I wrote. I want to "aw snap" my damned browser or whatever kicked me out. Going to try again.
Yes Firestar's future leadership was predictable, but a good read to see how it happened and to learn about the Clans. And his death at the end of the 24 book arc was almost predictable and, one of those things I hate-the death of the main character. BUT, what do I do? I write two books, both semifictional biographies written from the main characters pov, in which the charcaters in the Book titles die! Ugh-but I had to keep to the truth LOL
In my scifi world I have yet to off a main character. Closest I came in one book(still in the 1st draft stage) is I kill a main character's spouse and cause bondbreak that should have killed her too.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 29, 2018 22:00:55 GMT -5
Posted so I didn't lose it lal again.
To continue, in NEW BLOOD's newest tale, set in the future, I typed thru tears as the main character, Sunflight remembers her grandfather, Demonpoppa who died a season ago at twenty years old. He arrived at the clans already a mature cat by Clan standards, so no way would he still live. Kyestorm is hanging on in the Elder den, four years his junior.
Then I wrote the scene where Sunflight sees her beloved Demonpoppa in her dreams and sheeeesh, ckoking up as I wrote. I guess I get too attached. In my scifi in the 1st book, the original draft had one of the main character's pet dying, and OMG I could not do it LOL Good thing since that pet spawned the important alien feline characters in the 2nd book.
I am a sap tho. I adore happy endings with as few deaths as possible. Last chapter of NEW BLOOD was HARD because had to kill off many to keep to those fixed points in time that happen no matte what changes. But at least I gave several a good warrior's death instead of the mere mention in the current arc.
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Post by mintedstar/fur🦇 on Sept 30, 2018 5:09:31 GMT -5
I wish I had the patience and time to read through your guys' discussion because it looks interesting. To be honest, I like being aware of the tropes and I switch of between trying to break them and trying to use them in a new way. Never know if I succeed with either but I like playing with it. Most of these I see as tropes because the Erins overused them to the point that they've become no-go areas for a lot of the fics around here. Out in the wider fantasy writing world I can find ones that fit all these tropes but the writers work them in a way that fits to the book and doesn't over use them. But there's always that author that is an exception to the 'rules' and since we are talking about ones we don't like I have to say mine is the villain who has no reason to be evil. Actually, there's the exception thing rearing it's head. If it's used in a comedic way then I find no reason a person couldn't have a power hungry villain with no reasons. The 'joke' just has to be done well. Otherwise I need a character with motives and a past just like the main character and I need to understand them. The authors that really pull of the villains, and this is just a personal favorite, is when they get to far enough into their head that you start to see their angle. Horrified by it, maybe, but you get how they got there. I'm actually pretty okay with the prophecies. However, I prefer when I can't see who the prophecy is directed at and when, while it can be a motivation, it is not constantly thrown in your face. If I were to pick a prophecy trope, the 'chosen one' prophecy is a bit buggy to me. I prefer when, if there is a big guiding words, it's recognized that it's a unit that defeats an evil and not a single individual. I use a prophecy in a couple fics and some personal writing but once again I like playing corrupt a trope and twisting how they're used. So I'd be a bit hypocritical if I said I hated them. I just advice caution when using them. Main character being the special one: Sometimes I do this, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I just like seeing the burden shared. When reading, it's a bit hard to do because the main character does become the special one to the reader. They become very important. However, the them not being the prophecy child I've seen done very well in the past. The attachment to the main character is always going to be there but that doesn't mean that they have to 'be the one who saves us all'. Another example being when the story is told from the villain's point of view. Lies: Yeee. Never liked those much. Once again, particularly in the warrior series because it's overused. However, sometimes in other stories I find it makes interesting plot twists. I think it demands a certain amount of turning away from it, however. If the main character constantly has the lie brought up it gets old fast. If the lie is something that can be set aside or suspended from attention that I much prefer it, since the whole plot is not being run on it. All in all, any trope can be used and used well. It's when it's done badly and is thrown in your face that I really start to feel it great. If they were either used as background/semi-background or they are twisted around in a new way or broken later in the story than I can get behind that too.
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Post by phantomstar57 on Sept 30, 2018 9:57:51 GMT -5
Yes I do think the Erins are overusing certain tropes and even plotlines. Though it was weird in this last arc I think book 5, where they (probably coincidence) use a few things that looked like "NEW BLOOD" stuf LOL I mean Fluffball-a goofy Maine Coon kitten? There were a couple of other things that caught my eye and made me think dang did I inspire them? LOL nah. . .just my imagination and it was not anything huge.
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Post by 🍁Searipple101🍁 on Sept 30, 2018 10:56:04 GMT -5
phantomstar57 Deaths understandably need to happen, it's just when it's too predictable that I don't care for it as much. Well, that and when it's a main character or other one I really like. I'm super into happy endings, too. But the worst deaths stick with the prophecies. Like, 'Oh, this cat is gonna be evil, so you gotta kill them to save everyone.' But what makes that even worse is when the cat doesn't want to kill them. It's so predictable, and then the evil one goes on to be evil like promised, and the good one feels all guilty for not killing them when they should have, etc. I'd actually like it more if the good one straight up was just like 'Yeah, I'll do that.' and then goes and does it. It'd be less predictable anyway. mintedstar/fur🦇 I get what you're saying, and I agree. Tropes and cliches, if used well and not overused, can make a story come together very nicely. I play around with them a bit myself, but I think my favorite thing is breaking them. I liked having a story where the main character was the 'bad' one, and another story where the main character wasn't the 'chosen one' either. there is another small cliche that I think we often overlook. Strong leaders. No, not strong as in good and protecting the clan and all. I'm talking strong as in a great fighter, built to be a big cat, can take down just about everyone in combat. It's very little we see a leader smaller in size who uses their brain instead to win fights and lead. I particularly like breaking that trope, as well. What do you think of them?
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