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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 14:43:34 GMT -5
A lot of people wanted Mapleshade to have her own book, and there were mixed opinions on it. Some say it was great, whereas others think it's rushed.
Most of you know that I don't like this story because of how it's written. I feel like if you're writing a story about a villain, you're not supposed to feel sorry for them.
I feel like the villain is either supposed to know what they're doing or they just don't care about their crimes.
A perfect example of a great villain is Mistress Shade from the Two-Faced comic on Deviantart. She has a lot to her personality, and not just that she's horrible. She has a motherly personality to her daughter, she knows she's not a good leader (or at least I think she doesn't believe she's a good leader), there's some bad faults in her personality too, like she has killed cats before.
I'm not comparing these two characters (I really hate it when people do this) but I feel like villains should be written somewhere close to Mistress Shade from Two-Faced. She has more to a personality, but she cares about others.
People feel sorry for Mapleshade because everything bad happened to her, and I feel like that's just poor writing. Should we really sympathize with villain, let alone defend them, if they don't care about what they do?
Should villains even have their own written backstory from their POV?
I think one of the hardest characters to write about is a villain. I plan to write about one myself, and I don't want people to feel sorry for them like they do with Mapleshade. I don't want people to feel the need to protect them in certain situations. I would like to give my character more of a personality, than just being horrible.
Unless you do it right, I don't think villains should have a backstory. If you make everything bad happen to them, they will pity the villain. And if you give them only the personality about them just killing others for the sake of pleasure, that's just boring.
This is why I hate Mapleshade. I guess you can sympathize with her, but I wish some people would realize that she didn't need a backstory. Her story has been told. I made a poll on Deviantart if she needed one and people only said that they wanted to see what happened to her, but did we really need to know more? She's in the Dark Forest for a reason. She's done something bad. She explained in CP that she fell in love and the Clans exiled her, and her kits drowned.
If Mapleshade hadn't gotten a story at all, I might have still tolerated her character more.
I know she's not the only worst villain. I am sure there's worst ones out there. But sometimes I can't help but wonder that, unless you do it right, villains are never meant to have a story of their own.
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on Mar 8, 2017 15:14:39 GMT -5
Yes.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Mar 8, 2017 15:44:08 GMT -5
"I feel like if you're writing a story about a villain, you're not supposed to feel sorry for them." There is a trope page for villains you feel sorry for. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlasPoorVillain you want to tell me all of these characters are bad villians? -_- Yeah you feel sorry for them, doesn't mean people don't think they deserve what they got.
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Post by Darkfang ☾ on Mar 8, 2017 16:03:03 GMT -5
I always wanted a book on Mapleshade because I wanted to understand her character more. I was so disappointed when I found out it was a novella as I wanted the full backstory including her kithood and romance with Appledusk. I also thought it was a great opportunity to experience clan life from that time and meet all the cats from the clans. The Erin's blew that opportunity when they made it a novella.
Anyway, more to the point, I don't actually think books about villains like Mapleshade's Vengance or the Rise of Scourge are meant to make you feel sorry for them. I think they're purely to understand the character better.
Let's link this to real life. When someone commits a horrible crime, there's nearly always a motive, something which made them choose a road of destruction rather than kindness. Often this motive relates to a bad experience i.e. a poor upbringing, bullying, cheating and so on. Even when we understand why they did what they did, this never justifies it but just sheds light on their reasoning.
Back to warriors, I think the idea is the same. When I read Mapleshade's backstory, I felt sorry for her in that moment - I felt sorry for the cat who was forced out of her clan and lost all of her kits. I do not think this at all justifies her killings, it just adds understanding as to why they happened. I'm sure there are plenty of other cats who under the same circumstances would not have reacted with violence. I don't like Mapleshade as a cat and although I felt sorry for her when she lost everything, I understand that in the end she chose the path of bloodshed - no one forced her to kill, she made that decision and so I do not feel sorry for her.
So all in all, I find books about villains really interesting and don't actually think they try to justify horrible actions, but more try to make us understand the character more and their reasons behind their actions, even if WE don't agree with them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 16:26:23 GMT -5
"I feel like if you're writing a story about a villain, you're not supposed to feel sorry for them." There is a trope page for villains you feel sorry for. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlasPoorVillain you want to tell me all of these characters are bad villians? -_- Yeah you feel sorry for them, doesn't mean people don't think they deserve what they got. I suppose I worded that wrong. I never said they deserved what happened to them, but people defend these characters because of a bad past from what happened and I just think that's poor writing. It's mostly because they sympathized with the character, because bad things happened to them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 16:37:13 GMT -5
I always wanted a book on Mapleshade because I wanted to understand her character more. I was so disappointed when I found out it was a novella as I wanted the full backstory including her kithood and romance with Appledusk. I also thought it was a great opportunity to experience clan life from that time and meet all the cats from the clans. The Erin's blew that opportunity when they made it a novella. Anyway, more to the point, I don't actually think books about villains like Mapleshade's Vengance or the Rise of Scourge are meant to make you feel sorry for them. I think they're purely to understand the character better. Let's link this to real life. When someone commits a horrible crime, there's nearly always a motive, something which made them choose a road of destruction rather than kindness. Often this motive relates to a bad experience i.e. a poor upbringing, bullying, cheating and so on. Even when we understand why they did what they did, this never justifies it but just sheds light on their reasoning. Back to warriors, I think the idea is the same. When I read Mapleshade's backstory, I felt sorry for her in that moment - I felt sorry for the cat who was forced out of her clan and lost all of her kits. I do not think this at all justifies her killings, it just adds understanding as to why they happened. I'm sure there are plenty of other cats who under the same circumstances would not have reacted with violence. I don't like Mapleshade as a cat and although I felt sorry for her when she lost everything, I understand that in the end she chose the path of bloodshed - no one forced her to kill, she made that decision and so I do not feel sorry for her. So all in all, I find books about villains really interesting and don't actually think they try to justify horrible actions, but more try to make us understand the character more and their reasons behind their actions, even if WE don't agree with them. Good points. I believe Scourge's comic was written, said by Vicky herself, to have others understand him more and I think he's a decent villain. But people only wanted Mapleshade's story to know what happened to her. And we already knew. She explained everything in CP. And I feel like Vicky tried a little too hard for us to sympathize with her. For example, Mapleshade kept denying she didn't do anything wrong, even after she killed cats. But she's done wrong things by then. And breaking the warrior code is wrong. Now, she didn't deserve to be exiled - even I think that's a harsh punishment - but it is unrealistic to me in the Warriors world of her to think she hasn't done anything wrong. Everyone was portrayed as the jerk in her eyes. She blamed everyone for something she has done. That is why I feel like her story wasn't the greatest.
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Post by Darkfang ☾ on Mar 8, 2017 17:20:21 GMT -5
Good points. I believe Scourge's comic was written, said by Vicky herself, to have others understand him more and I think he's a decent villain. But people only wanted Mapleshade's story to know what happened to her. And we already knew. She explained everything in CP. And I feel like Vicky tried a little too hard for us to sympathize with her. For example, Mapleshade kept denying she didn't do anything wrong, even after she killed cats. But she's done wrong things by then. And breaking the warrior code is wrong. Now, she didn't deserve to be exiled - even I think that's a harsh punishment - but it is unrealistic to me in the Warriors world of her to think she hasn't done anything wrong. Everyone was portrayed as the jerk in her eyes. She blamed everyone for something she has done. That is why I feel like her story wasn't the greatest. I feel that Mapleshade had a mental disorder of some sort. She killed because vivid hallucinations of her dead kits told her to. This is not what a sane cat does, hence it's not surprising she felt she did no wrong. She also comes across as relatively deluded throughout MV. I mean she thought her clan would just accept the kits without a fight, knowing who their father was, but I have no idea where she got that impression from as it was clear her clan hated Appledusk. I agree that, in the end, MV was rather unnecessary as, like you said, it already told is what we knew. They could have done so much more with a book on her, like given us an insight into her life before she went crazy, as well as the rest of the cats in the clans.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 8, 2017 21:15:38 GMT -5
I think an SE would have been good for Mapleshade, not only because it would have been from a villain pov, but because we could have seen so much more. Like how the Dark Forest began it's uprising. Or life back then for the clans, etc. I would have found it much more interesting.
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Post by Pyropelt on Mar 9, 2017 1:21:15 GMT -5
I think a villian ebook (or even SE) would be great! Or even a guide, and each villian gets their own piece.
I mean some we've seen in the series and saw their stories, but I still would like more on them.
Snowtuft, Blizzardwing, Antpelt, Maggottail, Silverhawk, Redwillow, Deerfoot, Ripplestar, and other cats we don't know too much about (as opposed to Tigerstar, Mapleshade, Hawkfrost etc) would be nice to see.
Yeah I think every cat in the Dark Forest should be in a novella or Super Edition. Even the trainees could be mentioned too, and the Dark Forest cats' detailed reactions.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Mar 9, 2017 8:07:38 GMT -5
"I feel like if you're writing a story about a villain, you're not supposed to feel sorry for them." There is a trope page for villains you feel sorry for. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlasPoorVillain you want to tell me all of these characters are bad villians? -_- Yeah you feel sorry for them, doesn't mean people don't think they deserve what they got. I suppose I worded that wrong. I never said they deserved what happened to them, but people defend these characters because of a bad past from what happened and I just think that's poor writing. It's mostly because they sympathized with the character, because bad things happened to them. What does it matter if people sympathize with someones backstory. We do that all the time. What matters is how that sympathy effects our judgement of that character. According to the last poll only one person on this entire site thinks that Mapleshade didn't deserve the dark forest. This isn't a universally loved whoobie character, its at most a contentious character, and more likely just an echo chamber.
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Post by Owlmoon on Mar 9, 2017 22:46:09 GMT -5
I think a villian ebook (or even SE) would be great! Or even a guide, and each villian gets their own piece. I mean some we've seen in the series and saw their stories, but I still would like more on them. Snowtuft, Blizzardwing, Antpelt, Maggottail, Silverhawk, Redwillow, Deerfoot, Ripplestar, and other cats we don't know too much about (as opposed to Tigerstar, Mapleshade, Hawkfrost etc) would be nice to see. Yeah I think every cat in the Dark Forest should be in a novella or Super Edition. Even the trainees could be mentioned too, and the Dark Forest cats' detailed reactions. I always wondered why they ended up in the DF. The guide would be a great idea. One for how each living Clan member who joined the DF army too. Why did they do that? There should be anorak book series, just about the villains. That would be cool. Oversights about what went on in the DF, told from different perspectives.
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Post by Pyropelt on Mar 10, 2017 17:47:36 GMT -5
I think a villian ebook (or even SE) would be great! Or even a guide, and each villian gets their own piece. I mean some we've seen in the series and saw their stories, but I still would like more on them. Snowtuft, Blizzardwing, Antpelt, Maggottail, Silverhawk, Redwillow, Deerfoot, Ripplestar, and other cats we don't know too much about (as opposed to Tigerstar, Mapleshade, Hawkfrost etc) would be nice to see. Yeah I think every cat in the Dark Forest should be in a novella or Super Edition. Even the trainees could be mentioned too, and the Dark Forest cats' detailed reactions. I always wondered why they ended up in the DF. The guide would be a great idea. One for how each living Clan member who joined the DF army too. Why did they do that? There should be anorak book series, just about the villains. That would be cool. Oversights about what went on in the DF, told from different perspectives. Yeah I agree! More description into why some cats chose to side with the DF would be helpful! And why some ended up there in the first place. Ooh a series about villians would be cool! There could be a couple from each Clan or something. Explaining thought processes and battle tactics would be interesting too.
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Post by Owlmoon on Mar 10, 2017 18:00:46 GMT -5
I always wondered why they ended up in the DF. The guide would be a great idea. One for how each living Clan member who joined the DF army too. Why did they do that? There should be anorak book series, just about the villains. That would be cool. Oversights about what went on in the DF, told from different perspectives. Yeah I agree! More description into why some cats chose to side with the DF would be helpful! And why some ended up there in the first place. Ooh a series about villians would be cool! There could be a couple from each Clan or something. Explaining thought processes and battle tactics would be interesting too. *knocking on a door* Erins! Hello! We'd looooooooove a series just on villains...!
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Post by Pyropelt on Mar 10, 2017 18:33:38 GMT -5
Haha yeah for sure!
Hmm, a movie would be kinda cool! That way they could have creepy music! *Jaws theme*
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Post by Owlmoon on Mar 10, 2017 19:35:38 GMT -5
Haha yeah for sure! Hmm, a movie would be kinda cool! That way they could have creepy music! *Jaws theme* Yes! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUN
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 23:22:42 GMT -5
Though I get what you're saying, I don't think we should ban all E-books about villains out of fear that they'll promote violence, anger, and carnage as logical and justifiable actions. Even Ashfur. The Erins might have their own opinions on the subject- from completely demonizing characters to thinking that everyone doesn't deserve to be in the dark forest- but at the end of the day it's our choice to determine what we think of a character. Sure, bias and sugar-coating/demonizing certain characters might push some people to favor the author's point of view, but we still decide for ourselves, even in a series full of canon.
I wouldn't worry too much. There might be confusion for a season, but after a while things will start to clear up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 10:26:25 GMT -5
I think so, Like I don't like (please nobody hate on me for this) Ashfur but it'd be interesting to see his point of view. How the Erin's write hisPOV. What exactly was gong on in that head. Same goes for the other villains. Tigerstar, Brokenstar, Even some of the cats who were in the Dark Forest that don't really have a background. Maggot. . . Tail or something. those kind of cats. I'd think they'd be very interesting to read.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 10:56:05 GMT -5
I'd love more novellas about villains. Unfortunatey, I do not think the Erins are skilled or mature enough writers to handle them properly. Not to bash on the Erins, but they aren't exactly known for their phenomenal writing.
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Post by Fallenstep on Mar 24, 2017 17:30:37 GMT -5
Yes, and no.
Tigerstar's Fury I couldn't even finish because I was too busy growing about some of the stuff written (similar to Yellowfang's Secret). Mapleshade's Vegeance I finished, thought it was good, but sort of like before it was a sob story, explaining how bad Mapleshade had it.
Most eBooks I think aren't that good, and I remember the only one I kind of liked was Leafpool's Wish for some reason.
EBooks about villains I think should be written about villains we hardly saw, and didn't get a backstory for. Like the many background characters in the Dark Forest, or the ones we saw, but didn't really. Hawkfrost I think would remind me of TF too much, but it would be interesting to compare him to Bramblestar because then we'd have two stories, and maybe get some more info on him besides being Tigerstar Jr. number two.
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